Is a secondary dominant always a seventh chord?
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
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I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
1
always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much
– foreyez
17 hours ago
add a comment |
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
chords harmony
asked yesterday
foreyezforeyez
4,40632475
4,40632475
1
always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much
– foreyez
17 hours ago
add a comment |
1
always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much
– foreyez
17 hours ago
1
1
always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much
– foreyez
17 hours ago
always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much
– foreyez
17 hours ago
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6 Answers
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No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either aV
or aviio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.
– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
add a comment |
A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.
A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.
add a comment |
The answer is:NO
while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)
I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.
They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:
Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
add a comment |
Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!
V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.
Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
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No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either aV
or aviio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.
– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
add a comment |
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either aV
or aviio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.
– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
add a comment |
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered yesterday
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,84621220
4,84621220
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either aV
or aviio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.
– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
add a comment |
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either aV
or aviio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.
– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
yesterday
2
2
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a
V
or a viio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a
V
or a viio
with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.– Michael Curtis
14 hours ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 23 hours ago
TimTim
97.9k10100251
97.9k10100251
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
add a comment |
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.
– Peter
14 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
@Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.
– Tim
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.
– Peter
12 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
@Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.
– Tim
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.
– Peter
11 hours ago
add a comment |
A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.
A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.
add a comment |
A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.
A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.
add a comment |
A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.
A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.
A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.
A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.
answered 20 hours ago
Heather S.Heather S.
3,6711320
3,6711320
add a comment |
add a comment |
The answer is:NO
while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)
I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.
They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:
Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
add a comment |
The answer is:NO
while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)
I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.
They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:
Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
add a comment |
The answer is:NO
while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)
I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.
They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:
Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit
The answer is:NO
while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)
I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.
They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:
Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit
edited 22 hours ago
answered 23 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
45312
45312
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
add a comment |
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.
– Tim
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.
– Albrecht Hügli
22 hours ago
add a comment |
Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!
V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.
Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!
V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.
Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!
V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.
Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).
Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!
V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.
Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).
edited 15 hours ago
answered 15 hours ago
user45266user45266
2,467327
2,467327
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).
– Dekkadeci
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!
– user45266
15 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
@user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)
– piiperi
14 hours ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
piiperipiiperi
7516
7516
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
2
2
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
yesterday
2
2
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
@topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.
– piiperi
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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