Is a secondary dominant always a seventh chord?












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I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










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    always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

    – foreyez
    17 hours ago
















4















I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










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  • 1





    always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

    – foreyez
    17 hours ago














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4








4








I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).










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I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).







chords harmony






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asked yesterday









foreyezforeyez

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    always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

    – foreyez
    17 hours ago














  • 1





    always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

    – foreyez
    17 hours ago








1




1





always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

– foreyez
17 hours ago





always amazed at the answers I get on this forum, thank u all so much

– foreyez
17 hours ago










6 Answers
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No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






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  • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

    – piiperi
    yesterday






  • 2





    I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago



















2














The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






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  • Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    14 hours ago











  • @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago













  • I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    12 hours ago













  • @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

    – Tim
    11 hours ago











  • We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

    – Peter
    11 hours ago





















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A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






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    1














    The answer is:NO



    while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
    the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



    I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



    They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



    Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



    enter image description here






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    • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

      – Tim
      22 hours ago











    • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

      – Albrecht Hügli
      22 hours ago



















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    Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!



    V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.



    Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).






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    • Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

      – Dekkadeci
      15 hours ago











    • @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

      – user45266
      15 hours ago











    • @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

      – piiperi
      14 hours ago





















    0














    "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



    Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



    In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



    what is required for what



    On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



    Some more:
    enter image description here



    To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






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    • 2





      Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

      – topo morto
      yesterday






    • 2





      @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

      – piiperi
      23 hours ago











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    6 Answers
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    No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






    share|improve this answer
























    • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

      – piiperi
      yesterday






    • 2





      I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

      – Michael Curtis
      14 hours ago
















    7














    No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






    share|improve this answer
























    • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

      – piiperi
      yesterday






    • 2





      I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

      – Michael Curtis
      14 hours ago














    7












    7








    7







    No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.






    share|improve this answer













    No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered yesterday









    DekkadeciDekkadeci

    4,84621220




    4,84621220













    • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

      – piiperi
      yesterday






    • 2





      I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

      – Michael Curtis
      14 hours ago



















    • The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

      – piiperi
      yesterday






    • 2





      I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

      – Michael Curtis
      14 hours ago

















    The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

    – piiperi
    yesterday





    The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.

    – piiperi
    yesterday




    2




    2





    I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago





    I think the point is the secondary dominant needs a leading tone, effectively either a V or a viio with or without 7th or 9ths. But a minor chord wouldn't be a secondary dominant for its lack of a leading tone.

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago











    2














    The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



    Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






    share|improve this answer
























    • Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      14 hours ago











    • @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

      – Tim
      12 hours ago













    • I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      12 hours ago













    • @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

      – Tim
      11 hours ago











    • We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

      – Peter
      11 hours ago


















    2














    The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



    Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






    share|improve this answer
























    • Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      14 hours ago











    • @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

      – Tim
      12 hours ago













    • I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      12 hours ago













    • @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

      – Tim
      11 hours ago











    • We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

      – Peter
      11 hours ago
















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    2








    2







    The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



    Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!






    share|improve this answer













    The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.



    Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 23 hours ago









    TimTim

    97.9k10100251




    97.9k10100251













    • Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      14 hours ago











    • @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

      – Tim
      12 hours ago













    • I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      12 hours ago













    • @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

      – Tim
      11 hours ago











    • We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

      – Peter
      11 hours ago





















    • Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      14 hours ago











    • @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

      – Tim
      12 hours ago













    • I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

      – Peter
      12 hours ago













    • @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

      – Tim
      11 hours ago











    • We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

      – Peter
      11 hours ago



















    Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    14 hours ago





    Isn't a v/V just a normal ii chord? Even if we're in a minor key, I would describe that chord as a use of mode mixture. The leading tone is really necessary create the effect of a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    14 hours ago













    @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago







    @Peter - v/V is the same chord as ii. True. The Roman numerals help to define not only the chord, but its function. V doesn't always follow v/V, but when it does, that ii takes on the role of secondary dominant - as in v/V.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago















    I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    12 hours ago







    I can't agree with you on this. The ii chord preceding a V acts as a subdominant (like a IV), which is a distinct function from a secondary dominant.

    – Peter
    12 hours ago















    @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

    – Tim
    11 hours ago





    @Peter the subdominant in key C is F. The secondary dominant is Dm (or D/D7 or Dm7). Common notes abound. True. But its function is as a dominant leading to a dominant. Thus the term secondary dominant. That's it.

    – Tim
    11 hours ago













    We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

    – Peter
    11 hours ago







    We'll have to agree to disagree. Your interpretation does not match with any definition of secondary dominant that I've ever seen.

    – Peter
    11 hours ago













    2














    A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



    A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



      A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



        A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.






        share|improve this answer













        A secondary dominant "tonicizes" the chord that follows it, temporarily making it sound like a I chord. So, the secondary dominant needs to lead into that chord. A V chord can do this with the third of the chord, which acts as a leading tone into the root of the following chord. It does not need the 7th of the chord, but that will increase the pull with the existence of the tritone between the 3rd and 7th of the chord. A diminished vii chord can also be used because it contains the leading tone going into the next chord (the root of the vii chord), in addition to the existing tritone in the diminished chord. It is basically the upper portion of a V7 chord, without the root.



        A V chord or a diminished vii triad really only point towards one tonic. However, if a fully diminished vii7 is used, there are more possibilities. There are four different tritones in a fully diminished seventh chord, which could point towards four different tonics. For example, D F Ab Cb could "tonicize" Eb, F#, A, or C (and their enharmonic equivalents) depending on how it is interpreted. If more flexibility is desired with a diminished chord, the 7th needs to be used.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 20 hours ago









        Heather S.Heather S.

        3,6711320




        3,6711320























            1














            The answer is:NO



            while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
            the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



            I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



            They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



            Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



            enter image description here






            share|improve this answer


























            • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

              – Tim
              22 hours ago











            • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

              – Albrecht Hügli
              22 hours ago
















            1














            The answer is:NO



            while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
            the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



            I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



            They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



            Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



            enter image description here






            share|improve this answer


























            • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

              – Tim
              22 hours ago











            • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

              – Albrecht Hügli
              22 hours ago














            1












            1








            1







            The answer is:NO



            while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
            the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



            I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



            They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



            Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



            enter image description here






            share|improve this answer















            The answer is:NO



            while the (V7) is almost always used: in jazz (IIm7 - V7)
            the proper V is rarely found (as in folk tunes in a choir setting or in church choral settings *)



            I just went through some Bach-preludes and didn't find a proper V.



            They V will appear in a SATB voicing like:



            Oh du fröhliche Weihnachtszeit



            enter image description here







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 22 hours ago

























            answered 23 hours ago









            Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

            45312




            45312













            • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

              – Tim
              22 hours ago











            • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

              – Albrecht Hügli
              22 hours ago



















            • The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

              – Tim
              22 hours ago











            • yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

              – Albrecht Hügli
              22 hours ago

















            The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

            – Tim
            22 hours ago





            The OP asked about the secondary dominant, not the dominant.

            – Tim
            22 hours ago













            yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

            – Albrecht Hügli
            22 hours ago





            yes, I forgot the ( ) thanks, Tim. In the sheet example it is clear that I am relating to this.

            – Albrecht Hügli
            22 hours ago











            1














            Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!



            V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.



            Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).






            share|improve this answer


























            • Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

              – Dekkadeci
              15 hours ago











            • @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

              – user45266
              15 hours ago











            • @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

              – piiperi
              14 hours ago


















            1














            Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!



            V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.



            Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).






            share|improve this answer


























            • Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

              – Dekkadeci
              15 hours ago











            • @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

              – user45266
              15 hours ago











            • @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

              – piiperi
              14 hours ago
















            1












            1








            1







            Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!



            V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.



            Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).






            share|improve this answer















            Most people have stated here that you don't need the seventh to create a secondary dominant sound. That's true, as listening to D, G, C makes sense and sounds arguably just as good as D7, G7, C. But, there's one exception!



            V7/IV must contain the seventh degree. In A major, one must use A7 to resolve to D, otherwise it's not a secondary dominant at all. Any other secondary dominant doesn't matter, because without the seventh they aren't diatonic, but V/IV is I7, and I is diatonic and so won't be heard as a secondary dominant unless the minor seventh is added over it.



            Dekkadeci recently made me aware (thank you) that in minor keys, V/iv would not need the seventh (In A minor, A major to D minor doesn't need the seventh).







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 15 hours ago

























            answered 15 hours ago









            user45266user45266

            2,467327




            2,467327













            • Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

              – Dekkadeci
              15 hours ago











            • @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

              – user45266
              15 hours ago











            • @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

              – piiperi
              14 hours ago





















            • Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

              – Dekkadeci
              15 hours ago











            • @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

              – user45266
              15 hours ago











            • @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

              – piiperi
              14 hours ago



















            Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

            – Dekkadeci
            15 hours ago





            Note that the similar V/iv can get away without a seventh in a minor-key context, as another reading of it is the alien-in-a-minor-key I (instead of i).

            – Dekkadeci
            15 hours ago













            @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

            – user45266
            15 hours ago





            @Dekkadeci I've added this, thank you!

            – user45266
            15 hours ago













            @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

            – piiperi
            14 hours ago







            @user45266 but if you precede the A with, say, a Gm6/E (a.k.a. Em7b5) or Em7 or G or just an Em, then the A works as a secondary dominant even without a 7th. :) (you'll probably say that it's because the preceding chord at least temporarily established the presence of a G)

            – piiperi
            14 hours ago













            0














            "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



            Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



            In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



            what is required for what



            On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



            Some more:
            enter image description here



            To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 2





              Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

              – topo morto
              yesterday






            • 2





              @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

              – piiperi
              23 hours ago
















            0














            "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



            Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



            In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



            what is required for what



            On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



            Some more:
            enter image description here



            To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 2





              Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

              – topo morto
              yesterday






            • 2





              @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

              – piiperi
              23 hours ago














            0












            0








            0







            "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



            Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



            In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



            what is required for what



            On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



            Some more:
            enter image description here



            To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.






            share|improve this answer















            "Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)



            Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord



            In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.



            what is required for what



            On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?



            Some more:
            enter image description here



            To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered yesterday









            piiperipiiperi

            7516




            7516








            • 2





              Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

              – topo morto
              yesterday






            • 2





              @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

              – piiperi
              23 hours ago














            • 2





              Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

              – topo morto
              yesterday






            • 2





              @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

              – piiperi
              23 hours ago








            2




            2





            Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

            – topo morto
            yesterday





            Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?

            – topo morto
            yesterday




            2




            2





            @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

            – piiperi
            23 hours ago





            @topomorto I want to teach a man to fish instead of just giving him a fish.

            – piiperi
            23 hours ago


















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