Can a proof be just words?
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I suppose this is a question about mathematical convention. In a problem in Introduction to Probability by Bertsekas and Tsitsiklis, they ask the reader to prove an identity. But then their proof is just using words:
Problem 3.* Prove the identity $$A cup big( cap_{n=1}^infty B_n big) = cap_{n=1}^infty(A cup B_n).$$
Solution. If $x$ belongs to the set on the left, there are two possibilities. Either $x in A$, in which case $x$ belongs to all of
the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore belongs to the set on the right.
Alternatively, $x$ belongs to all of the sets $B_n$ in which case, it
belongs to all of the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore again belongs
to the set on the right.
Conversely, if $x$ belongs to the set on the right, then it belongs to
$A cup B_n$ for all $n$. If $x$ belongs to $A$, then it belongs to
the set on the left. Otherwise, $x$ must belong to every set $B_n$ and
again belongs to the set on the left.
In mathematics, why is this allowed? Can you say that this is more correct a proof that is, "Oh, it's obvious!" or "Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right"?
I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely curious as to how thorough one must be when using words as proof.
formal-proofs
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suppose this is a question about mathematical convention. In a problem in Introduction to Probability by Bertsekas and Tsitsiklis, they ask the reader to prove an identity. But then their proof is just using words:
Problem 3.* Prove the identity $$A cup big( cap_{n=1}^infty B_n big) = cap_{n=1}^infty(A cup B_n).$$
Solution. If $x$ belongs to the set on the left, there are two possibilities. Either $x in A$, in which case $x$ belongs to all of
the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore belongs to the set on the right.
Alternatively, $x$ belongs to all of the sets $B_n$ in which case, it
belongs to all of the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore again belongs
to the set on the right.
Conversely, if $x$ belongs to the set on the right, then it belongs to
$A cup B_n$ for all $n$. If $x$ belongs to $A$, then it belongs to
the set on the left. Otherwise, $x$ must belong to every set $B_n$ and
again belongs to the set on the left.
In mathematics, why is this allowed? Can you say that this is more correct a proof that is, "Oh, it's obvious!" or "Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right"?
I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely curious as to how thorough one must be when using words as proof.
formal-proofs
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5
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I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
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– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
4
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There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
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– Bernard
5 hours ago
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Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
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– Alex S
3 hours ago
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Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
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– Keith McClary
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I suppose this is a question about mathematical convention. In a problem in Introduction to Probability by Bertsekas and Tsitsiklis, they ask the reader to prove an identity. But then their proof is just using words:
Problem 3.* Prove the identity $$A cup big( cap_{n=1}^infty B_n big) = cap_{n=1}^infty(A cup B_n).$$
Solution. If $x$ belongs to the set on the left, there are two possibilities. Either $x in A$, in which case $x$ belongs to all of
the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore belongs to the set on the right.
Alternatively, $x$ belongs to all of the sets $B_n$ in which case, it
belongs to all of the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore again belongs
to the set on the right.
Conversely, if $x$ belongs to the set on the right, then it belongs to
$A cup B_n$ for all $n$. If $x$ belongs to $A$, then it belongs to
the set on the left. Otherwise, $x$ must belong to every set $B_n$ and
again belongs to the set on the left.
In mathematics, why is this allowed? Can you say that this is more correct a proof that is, "Oh, it's obvious!" or "Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right"?
I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely curious as to how thorough one must be when using words as proof.
formal-proofs
$endgroup$
I suppose this is a question about mathematical convention. In a problem in Introduction to Probability by Bertsekas and Tsitsiklis, they ask the reader to prove an identity. But then their proof is just using words:
Problem 3.* Prove the identity $$A cup big( cap_{n=1}^infty B_n big) = cap_{n=1}^infty(A cup B_n).$$
Solution. If $x$ belongs to the set on the left, there are two possibilities. Either $x in A$, in which case $x$ belongs to all of
the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore belongs to the set on the right.
Alternatively, $x$ belongs to all of the sets $B_n$ in which case, it
belongs to all of the sets $A cup B_n$, and therefore again belongs
to the set on the right.
Conversely, if $x$ belongs to the set on the right, then it belongs to
$A cup B_n$ for all $n$. If $x$ belongs to $A$, then it belongs to
the set on the left. Otherwise, $x$ must belong to every set $B_n$ and
again belongs to the set on the left.
In mathematics, why is this allowed? Can you say that this is more correct a proof that is, "Oh, it's obvious!" or "Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right"?
I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely curious as to how thorough one must be when using words as proof.
formal-proofs
formal-proofs
edited 3 hours ago
Eric M. Schmidt
2,54111228
2,54111228
asked 5 hours ago
gwggwg
9481921
9481921
5
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I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
$endgroup$
– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
$endgroup$
– Alex S
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
$endgroup$
– Keith McClary
1 hour ago
add a comment |
5
$begingroup$
I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
$endgroup$
– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
$endgroup$
– Alex S
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
$endgroup$
– Keith McClary
1 hour ago
5
5
$begingroup$
I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
$endgroup$
– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
$endgroup$
– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
$endgroup$
– Alex S
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
$endgroup$
– Alex S
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
$endgroup$
– Keith McClary
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
$endgroup$
– Keith McClary
1 hour ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
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Exactly as thorough as you would have to be using any other kinds of symbols. It's just that vast messes of symbols are hellish for humans to read, but sentences aren't. Adding symbols to something doesn't make it more rigorous, less likely to be wrong, or really anything else. Symbols are useful for abbreviating in situations where this adds clarity, and making complex arguments easier to follow, but shouldn't be used where they do not help in this regard.
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add a comment |
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Yes they can and I'm of the opinion that symbolism and notation should be avoided unless it serves to simply the presentation of the material or to perform calculations. For example you want to cut a cube so that each face has a three by three grid of smaller cubes similar to the Rubix cube and with a little thought and experimentation once might conjecture that six is the minimal number of cuts. The best proof of this that I know of is simply "Consider the faces of the center cube." They require six cuts because there are six faces and it follows immediately. No symbols or calculation but still logical and mathematically sound.
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I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
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– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
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+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
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– timtfj
4 hours ago
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@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
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(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
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– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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Two points:
(i) Historically, all proofs were done in words—the use of standardised symbols is a surprisingly recent development. This is obscured a bit because a modern edition of, say, Euclid's Elements is likely to have had the words translated into modern notation.
(ii) Before symbols can be used they have to be defined, and ultimately that definition will be in words. It's easy to forget this, especially with ones that we use all the time and learnt in childhood. But, for example, we once had to learn that $2+3=5$ was short for "Two things together with three things is the same as five things".
Though a lot of us learnt instead that $2+3=5$ meant "Three things added to two things makes five things".
Now, these two definitions are different. One makes $2+3$ into an operation done to $2$, and treats $=$ as an instruction to carry it out; the other says that the number on the right has the same value as the expression on the left. The notation, though, doesn't make this distinction, and it's possible to spend years using the $=$ sign as though it meant "put the result of the operation on the left on the right".
So in this case we've got one string of symbols ($2+3=5$) a correct definition and a misleading definition. And how do we clarify the correct meaning of the symbols? By choosing which verbal definition to use. The precision is in the words (at least if they're well chosen).
Of course, more advanced symbols will most likely have some mathematical symbols in their definitions—but ultimately, we'll get back to words.
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Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
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– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
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Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
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– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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Natural language for expressing mathematical statements can be indeed vague and ambigous. However, when you study mathematics, one thing you will usually learn at the beginning is how to use mathematical terminology in a rigid, unambigous way (at least for communication with other people trained in mathematical terminology). This process takes usually some time if you are not a genius (I guess it took me about two years at the university until I became reasonable fluent), so unfortunately I fear I cannot tell you a small set of rules which kind of language is "right" for mathematical proofs, and which is "wrong".
Hence, the answer is clearly "yes, words are fine, when used correctly by a trained expert". Amazingly, one could say the same about more formal proofs using symbols.
Note that historically, before the 18th century, proofs using natural language was the de facto standard in mathematics. The symbolics we often use today was developed in the 18th and 19th century.
New contributor
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It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
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– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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Behind the proof system is logic... you need to write a reasoning that is fool proof and can be reproduced by the reader to lead to the same conclusion, and every step of the proof must be unambiguous and without "exceptions" (if there are special cases, they must be stated). As long as this is respected, the proof is correct and complete. When you see a symbolic proof, you can still read it in plain language, as long as you understand what it means, so there is no real difference (as long as the proof is rigorous, without "holes" or ambiguous statements).
Note that this excludes statements such as "this is obvious". You need to tell the reader of the proof what steps to take in his own mind to come to a single unmistaken conclusion. This part is very important - not understanding this leads some people to rejects proofs as opinions (all pseudoscience relies on this fallacy).
Now, just as words are just notation for thoughts, so are symbolic expressions just short notation for longer words. Symbolic notation has the advantage to being language-independent, and exact within their previous agreed upon definition. They a lot of times simplify things in algebra, arithmetics and functional analysis, where reasoning just follows simple steps without decision making and reasoning.
However, when it comes to logic, deduction, and other high-level thought processes, notation gets clumsier and a lot of times harder to understand (there are symbols for "therefore" and statements such as "A implies Β", but the author might not choose to use them). Instead of calculations, you have something that very much resembles formal computer programs, and fewer people are trained to read them fluently.
Think of lawyers: law is written in "english", but most "everyday english" isn't used, because it's ambiguous. Instead, the words are meticulously put together to try to cover all the corner cases and have only one interpretation (so much, that for a layman, the text is almost incomprehensible). The metaphor is not the best, because in lawmaking, there is no rigorous foundation (no true axioms) to rely upon, but I hope you understand the point.
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add a comment |
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For your particular example:
Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right.
would not be a convincing proof. This is not because it is in words, however -- words are perfectly fine.
But it fails to convince because the intersection is over an infinite family of sets. Your proposal would work fine for a finite intersection, in that it gives a recipe for constructing an algebraic proof that would itself be convincing. And in ordinary mathematics a convincing recipe for a convincing proof is itself as good as the real thing.
But for an infinite intersection, the algebraic calculation you're describing never ends! No matter how many steps you do, there will still be an intersection of infinitely many $A_i$s that have yet to be distributed over in your expression. So your recipe does not lead to a finite proof, and infinite things (to the extent they are "things" at all) are not convincing arguments.
There are ways to convert some cases of infinitary intuition into actual convincing proofs, but they have subtle pitfalls, so you can't get away with using them -- no matter whether with words or with symbols -- unless you also convince the reader/listener that you know what these pitfalls are and have a working strategy for avoiding them. Typically this means you need to explicitly describe how you handle the step from "arbitrarily but finitely many" to "infinitely many" (or in more sophisticated phrasing: what do you do at a limit ordinal?).
A somewhat unheralded part of mathematics education is that over time you will get to see sufficiently many examples of this that you collect a toolbox of "usual tricks". When communicating in a situation where you trust everyone knows the usual tricks you can often get away with not even specifying which trick you're using, if everybody present is experienced enough to see quickly that there's one of the usual tricks that will obviously work.
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
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Exactly as thorough as you would have to be using any other kinds of symbols. It's just that vast messes of symbols are hellish for humans to read, but sentences aren't. Adding symbols to something doesn't make it more rigorous, less likely to be wrong, or really anything else. Symbols are useful for abbreviating in situations where this adds clarity, and making complex arguments easier to follow, but shouldn't be used where they do not help in this regard.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Exactly as thorough as you would have to be using any other kinds of symbols. It's just that vast messes of symbols are hellish for humans to read, but sentences aren't. Adding symbols to something doesn't make it more rigorous, less likely to be wrong, or really anything else. Symbols are useful for abbreviating in situations where this adds clarity, and making complex arguments easier to follow, but shouldn't be used where they do not help in this regard.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Exactly as thorough as you would have to be using any other kinds of symbols. It's just that vast messes of symbols are hellish for humans to read, but sentences aren't. Adding symbols to something doesn't make it more rigorous, less likely to be wrong, or really anything else. Symbols are useful for abbreviating in situations where this adds clarity, and making complex arguments easier to follow, but shouldn't be used where they do not help in this regard.
$endgroup$
Exactly as thorough as you would have to be using any other kinds of symbols. It's just that vast messes of symbols are hellish for humans to read, but sentences aren't. Adding symbols to something doesn't make it more rigorous, less likely to be wrong, or really anything else. Symbols are useful for abbreviating in situations where this adds clarity, and making complex arguments easier to follow, but shouldn't be used where they do not help in this regard.
answered 5 hours ago
user3482749user3482749
3,922418
3,922418
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes they can and I'm of the opinion that symbolism and notation should be avoided unless it serves to simply the presentation of the material or to perform calculations. For example you want to cut a cube so that each face has a three by three grid of smaller cubes similar to the Rubix cube and with a little thought and experimentation once might conjecture that six is the minimal number of cuts. The best proof of this that I know of is simply "Consider the faces of the center cube." They require six cuts because there are six faces and it follows immediately. No symbols or calculation but still logical and mathematically sound.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
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– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
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+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes they can and I'm of the opinion that symbolism and notation should be avoided unless it serves to simply the presentation of the material or to perform calculations. For example you want to cut a cube so that each face has a three by three grid of smaller cubes similar to the Rubix cube and with a little thought and experimentation once might conjecture that six is the minimal number of cuts. The best proof of this that I know of is simply "Consider the faces of the center cube." They require six cuts because there are six faces and it follows immediately. No symbols or calculation but still logical and mathematically sound.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
$endgroup$
– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes they can and I'm of the opinion that symbolism and notation should be avoided unless it serves to simply the presentation of the material or to perform calculations. For example you want to cut a cube so that each face has a three by three grid of smaller cubes similar to the Rubix cube and with a little thought and experimentation once might conjecture that six is the minimal number of cuts. The best proof of this that I know of is simply "Consider the faces of the center cube." They require six cuts because there are six faces and it follows immediately. No symbols or calculation but still logical and mathematically sound.
$endgroup$
Yes they can and I'm of the opinion that symbolism and notation should be avoided unless it serves to simply the presentation of the material or to perform calculations. For example you want to cut a cube so that each face has a three by three grid of smaller cubes similar to the Rubix cube and with a little thought and experimentation once might conjecture that six is the minimal number of cuts. The best proof of this that I know of is simply "Consider the faces of the center cube." They require six cuts because there are six faces and it follows immediately. No symbols or calculation but still logical and mathematically sound.
answered 5 hours ago
CyclotomicFieldCyclotomicField
2,2581313
2,2581313
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I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
$endgroup$
– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
$endgroup$
– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
$endgroup$
– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think your example proof only shows that 6 is a lower bound, not that it is a minimum.
$endgroup$
– Paŭlo Ebermann
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 Spot on, though I feel obliged to say that Rubik's Cube is named after Rubik (who I think invented it to demonstrate group theory).
$endgroup$
– timtfj
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PaŭloEbermann that's correct and one would need to ensure a six cut solution exists which I assumed would have been found during the formation of the conjecture.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(A tangent: just because each face has a tic-tac-toe pattern of cuts on it does not immediately imply that there is any "center cube" at all. To assert that there is one seems to presuppose that the obvious six-cut solution is unique ...)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Two points:
(i) Historically, all proofs were done in words—the use of standardised symbols is a surprisingly recent development. This is obscured a bit because a modern edition of, say, Euclid's Elements is likely to have had the words translated into modern notation.
(ii) Before symbols can be used they have to be defined, and ultimately that definition will be in words. It's easy to forget this, especially with ones that we use all the time and learnt in childhood. But, for example, we once had to learn that $2+3=5$ was short for "Two things together with three things is the same as five things".
Though a lot of us learnt instead that $2+3=5$ meant "Three things added to two things makes five things".
Now, these two definitions are different. One makes $2+3$ into an operation done to $2$, and treats $=$ as an instruction to carry it out; the other says that the number on the right has the same value as the expression on the left. The notation, though, doesn't make this distinction, and it's possible to spend years using the $=$ sign as though it meant "put the result of the operation on the left on the right".
So in this case we've got one string of symbols ($2+3=5$) a correct definition and a misleading definition. And how do we clarify the correct meaning of the symbols? By choosing which verbal definition to use. The precision is in the words (at least if they're well chosen).
Of course, more advanced symbols will most likely have some mathematical symbols in their definitions—but ultimately, we'll get back to words.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Two points:
(i) Historically, all proofs were done in words—the use of standardised symbols is a surprisingly recent development. This is obscured a bit because a modern edition of, say, Euclid's Elements is likely to have had the words translated into modern notation.
(ii) Before symbols can be used they have to be defined, and ultimately that definition will be in words. It's easy to forget this, especially with ones that we use all the time and learnt in childhood. But, for example, we once had to learn that $2+3=5$ was short for "Two things together with three things is the same as five things".
Though a lot of us learnt instead that $2+3=5$ meant "Three things added to two things makes five things".
Now, these two definitions are different. One makes $2+3$ into an operation done to $2$, and treats $=$ as an instruction to carry it out; the other says that the number on the right has the same value as the expression on the left. The notation, though, doesn't make this distinction, and it's possible to spend years using the $=$ sign as though it meant "put the result of the operation on the left on the right".
So in this case we've got one string of symbols ($2+3=5$) a correct definition and a misleading definition. And how do we clarify the correct meaning of the symbols? By choosing which verbal definition to use. The precision is in the words (at least if they're well chosen).
Of course, more advanced symbols will most likely have some mathematical symbols in their definitions—but ultimately, we'll get back to words.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Two points:
(i) Historically, all proofs were done in words—the use of standardised symbols is a surprisingly recent development. This is obscured a bit because a modern edition of, say, Euclid's Elements is likely to have had the words translated into modern notation.
(ii) Before symbols can be used they have to be defined, and ultimately that definition will be in words. It's easy to forget this, especially with ones that we use all the time and learnt in childhood. But, for example, we once had to learn that $2+3=5$ was short for "Two things together with three things is the same as five things".
Though a lot of us learnt instead that $2+3=5$ meant "Three things added to two things makes five things".
Now, these two definitions are different. One makes $2+3$ into an operation done to $2$, and treats $=$ as an instruction to carry it out; the other says that the number on the right has the same value as the expression on the left. The notation, though, doesn't make this distinction, and it's possible to spend years using the $=$ sign as though it meant "put the result of the operation on the left on the right".
So in this case we've got one string of symbols ($2+3=5$) a correct definition and a misleading definition. And how do we clarify the correct meaning of the symbols? By choosing which verbal definition to use. The precision is in the words (at least if they're well chosen).
Of course, more advanced symbols will most likely have some mathematical symbols in their definitions—but ultimately, we'll get back to words.
$endgroup$
Two points:
(i) Historically, all proofs were done in words—the use of standardised symbols is a surprisingly recent development. This is obscured a bit because a modern edition of, say, Euclid's Elements is likely to have had the words translated into modern notation.
(ii) Before symbols can be used they have to be defined, and ultimately that definition will be in words. It's easy to forget this, especially with ones that we use all the time and learnt in childhood. But, for example, we once had to learn that $2+3=5$ was short for "Two things together with three things is the same as five things".
Though a lot of us learnt instead that $2+3=5$ meant "Three things added to two things makes five things".
Now, these two definitions are different. One makes $2+3$ into an operation done to $2$, and treats $=$ as an instruction to carry it out; the other says that the number on the right has the same value as the expression on the left. The notation, though, doesn't make this distinction, and it's possible to spend years using the $=$ sign as though it meant "put the result of the operation on the left on the right".
So in this case we've got one string of symbols ($2+3=5$) a correct definition and a misleading definition. And how do we clarify the correct meaning of the symbols? By choosing which verbal definition to use. The precision is in the words (at least if they're well chosen).
Of course, more advanced symbols will most likely have some mathematical symbols in their definitions—but ultimately, we'll get back to words.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
timtfjtimtfj
1,353318
1,353318
1
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bad example. I've yet to see a translation of Euclid's elements with modern symbolism interposed. About the only symbolism in Euclid is the labeling of points, lines, or other geometric elements, and Euclid did this himself. The only change translators make is to use the Latin alphabet instead of the Greek.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Indeed a significant proportion of people seem to be using the $=$ as if it meant, "the next step in the procedure I'm thinking about is to write down the following", with no particular consideration of how that next step relates to what is already on the paper.
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Natural language for expressing mathematical statements can be indeed vague and ambigous. However, when you study mathematics, one thing you will usually learn at the beginning is how to use mathematical terminology in a rigid, unambigous way (at least for communication with other people trained in mathematical terminology). This process takes usually some time if you are not a genius (I guess it took me about two years at the university until I became reasonable fluent), so unfortunately I fear I cannot tell you a small set of rules which kind of language is "right" for mathematical proofs, and which is "wrong".
Hence, the answer is clearly "yes, words are fine, when used correctly by a trained expert". Amazingly, one could say the same about more formal proofs using symbols.
Note that historically, before the 18th century, proofs using natural language was the de facto standard in mathematics. The symbolics we often use today was developed in the 18th and 19th century.
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Natural language for expressing mathematical statements can be indeed vague and ambigous. However, when you study mathematics, one thing you will usually learn at the beginning is how to use mathematical terminology in a rigid, unambigous way (at least for communication with other people trained in mathematical terminology). This process takes usually some time if you are not a genius (I guess it took me about two years at the university until I became reasonable fluent), so unfortunately I fear I cannot tell you a small set of rules which kind of language is "right" for mathematical proofs, and which is "wrong".
Hence, the answer is clearly "yes, words are fine, when used correctly by a trained expert". Amazingly, one could say the same about more formal proofs using symbols.
Note that historically, before the 18th century, proofs using natural language was the de facto standard in mathematics. The symbolics we often use today was developed in the 18th and 19th century.
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Natural language for expressing mathematical statements can be indeed vague and ambigous. However, when you study mathematics, one thing you will usually learn at the beginning is how to use mathematical terminology in a rigid, unambigous way (at least for communication with other people trained in mathematical terminology). This process takes usually some time if you are not a genius (I guess it took me about two years at the university until I became reasonable fluent), so unfortunately I fear I cannot tell you a small set of rules which kind of language is "right" for mathematical proofs, and which is "wrong".
Hence, the answer is clearly "yes, words are fine, when used correctly by a trained expert". Amazingly, one could say the same about more formal proofs using symbols.
Note that historically, before the 18th century, proofs using natural language was the de facto standard in mathematics. The symbolics we often use today was developed in the 18th and 19th century.
New contributor
$endgroup$
Natural language for expressing mathematical statements can be indeed vague and ambigous. However, when you study mathematics, one thing you will usually learn at the beginning is how to use mathematical terminology in a rigid, unambigous way (at least for communication with other people trained in mathematical terminology). This process takes usually some time if you are not a genius (I guess it took me about two years at the university until I became reasonable fluent), so unfortunately I fear I cannot tell you a small set of rules which kind of language is "right" for mathematical proofs, and which is "wrong".
Hence, the answer is clearly "yes, words are fine, when used correctly by a trained expert". Amazingly, one could say the same about more formal proofs using symbols.
Note that historically, before the 18th century, proofs using natural language was the de facto standard in mathematics. The symbolics we often use today was developed in the 18th and 19th century.
New contributor
edited 4 hours ago
New contributor
answered 4 hours ago
Doc BrownDoc Brown
1115
1115
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
It depends on the symbol. The most basic, ( such as = and + ) are several centuries older.
$endgroup$
– Paul Sinclair
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Behind the proof system is logic... you need to write a reasoning that is fool proof and can be reproduced by the reader to lead to the same conclusion, and every step of the proof must be unambiguous and without "exceptions" (if there are special cases, they must be stated). As long as this is respected, the proof is correct and complete. When you see a symbolic proof, you can still read it in plain language, as long as you understand what it means, so there is no real difference (as long as the proof is rigorous, without "holes" or ambiguous statements).
Note that this excludes statements such as "this is obvious". You need to tell the reader of the proof what steps to take in his own mind to come to a single unmistaken conclusion. This part is very important - not understanding this leads some people to rejects proofs as opinions (all pseudoscience relies on this fallacy).
Now, just as words are just notation for thoughts, so are symbolic expressions just short notation for longer words. Symbolic notation has the advantage to being language-independent, and exact within their previous agreed upon definition. They a lot of times simplify things in algebra, arithmetics and functional analysis, where reasoning just follows simple steps without decision making and reasoning.
However, when it comes to logic, deduction, and other high-level thought processes, notation gets clumsier and a lot of times harder to understand (there are symbols for "therefore" and statements such as "A implies Β", but the author might not choose to use them). Instead of calculations, you have something that very much resembles formal computer programs, and fewer people are trained to read them fluently.
Think of lawyers: law is written in "english", but most "everyday english" isn't used, because it's ambiguous. Instead, the words are meticulously put together to try to cover all the corner cases and have only one interpretation (so much, that for a layman, the text is almost incomprehensible). The metaphor is not the best, because in lawmaking, there is no rigorous foundation (no true axioms) to rely upon, but I hope you understand the point.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Behind the proof system is logic... you need to write a reasoning that is fool proof and can be reproduced by the reader to lead to the same conclusion, and every step of the proof must be unambiguous and without "exceptions" (if there are special cases, they must be stated). As long as this is respected, the proof is correct and complete. When you see a symbolic proof, you can still read it in plain language, as long as you understand what it means, so there is no real difference (as long as the proof is rigorous, without "holes" or ambiguous statements).
Note that this excludes statements such as "this is obvious". You need to tell the reader of the proof what steps to take in his own mind to come to a single unmistaken conclusion. This part is very important - not understanding this leads some people to rejects proofs as opinions (all pseudoscience relies on this fallacy).
Now, just as words are just notation for thoughts, so are symbolic expressions just short notation for longer words. Symbolic notation has the advantage to being language-independent, and exact within their previous agreed upon definition. They a lot of times simplify things in algebra, arithmetics and functional analysis, where reasoning just follows simple steps without decision making and reasoning.
However, when it comes to logic, deduction, and other high-level thought processes, notation gets clumsier and a lot of times harder to understand (there are symbols for "therefore" and statements such as "A implies Β", but the author might not choose to use them). Instead of calculations, you have something that very much resembles formal computer programs, and fewer people are trained to read them fluently.
Think of lawyers: law is written in "english", but most "everyday english" isn't used, because it's ambiguous. Instead, the words are meticulously put together to try to cover all the corner cases and have only one interpretation (so much, that for a layman, the text is almost incomprehensible). The metaphor is not the best, because in lawmaking, there is no rigorous foundation (no true axioms) to rely upon, but I hope you understand the point.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Behind the proof system is logic... you need to write a reasoning that is fool proof and can be reproduced by the reader to lead to the same conclusion, and every step of the proof must be unambiguous and without "exceptions" (if there are special cases, they must be stated). As long as this is respected, the proof is correct and complete. When you see a symbolic proof, you can still read it in plain language, as long as you understand what it means, so there is no real difference (as long as the proof is rigorous, without "holes" or ambiguous statements).
Note that this excludes statements such as "this is obvious". You need to tell the reader of the proof what steps to take in his own mind to come to a single unmistaken conclusion. This part is very important - not understanding this leads some people to rejects proofs as opinions (all pseudoscience relies on this fallacy).
Now, just as words are just notation for thoughts, so are symbolic expressions just short notation for longer words. Symbolic notation has the advantage to being language-independent, and exact within their previous agreed upon definition. They a lot of times simplify things in algebra, arithmetics and functional analysis, where reasoning just follows simple steps without decision making and reasoning.
However, when it comes to logic, deduction, and other high-level thought processes, notation gets clumsier and a lot of times harder to understand (there are symbols for "therefore" and statements such as "A implies Β", but the author might not choose to use them). Instead of calculations, you have something that very much resembles formal computer programs, and fewer people are trained to read them fluently.
Think of lawyers: law is written in "english", but most "everyday english" isn't used, because it's ambiguous. Instead, the words are meticulously put together to try to cover all the corner cases and have only one interpretation (so much, that for a layman, the text is almost incomprehensible). The metaphor is not the best, because in lawmaking, there is no rigorous foundation (no true axioms) to rely upon, but I hope you understand the point.
$endgroup$
Behind the proof system is logic... you need to write a reasoning that is fool proof and can be reproduced by the reader to lead to the same conclusion, and every step of the proof must be unambiguous and without "exceptions" (if there are special cases, they must be stated). As long as this is respected, the proof is correct and complete. When you see a symbolic proof, you can still read it in plain language, as long as you understand what it means, so there is no real difference (as long as the proof is rigorous, without "holes" or ambiguous statements).
Note that this excludes statements such as "this is obvious". You need to tell the reader of the proof what steps to take in his own mind to come to a single unmistaken conclusion. This part is very important - not understanding this leads some people to rejects proofs as opinions (all pseudoscience relies on this fallacy).
Now, just as words are just notation for thoughts, so are symbolic expressions just short notation for longer words. Symbolic notation has the advantage to being language-independent, and exact within their previous agreed upon definition. They a lot of times simplify things in algebra, arithmetics and functional analysis, where reasoning just follows simple steps without decision making and reasoning.
However, when it comes to logic, deduction, and other high-level thought processes, notation gets clumsier and a lot of times harder to understand (there are symbols for "therefore" and statements such as "A implies Β", but the author might not choose to use them). Instead of calculations, you have something that very much resembles formal computer programs, and fewer people are trained to read them fluently.
Think of lawyers: law is written in "english", but most "everyday english" isn't used, because it's ambiguous. Instead, the words are meticulously put together to try to cover all the corner cases and have only one interpretation (so much, that for a layman, the text is almost incomprehensible). The metaphor is not the best, because in lawmaking, there is no rigorous foundation (no true axioms) to rely upon, but I hope you understand the point.
answered 4 hours ago
orionorion
13.2k11836
13.2k11836
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For your particular example:
Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right.
would not be a convincing proof. This is not because it is in words, however -- words are perfectly fine.
But it fails to convince because the intersection is over an infinite family of sets. Your proposal would work fine for a finite intersection, in that it gives a recipe for constructing an algebraic proof that would itself be convincing. And in ordinary mathematics a convincing recipe for a convincing proof is itself as good as the real thing.
But for an infinite intersection, the algebraic calculation you're describing never ends! No matter how many steps you do, there will still be an intersection of infinitely many $A_i$s that have yet to be distributed over in your expression. So your recipe does not lead to a finite proof, and infinite things (to the extent they are "things" at all) are not convincing arguments.
There are ways to convert some cases of infinitary intuition into actual convincing proofs, but they have subtle pitfalls, so you can't get away with using them -- no matter whether with words or with symbols -- unless you also convince the reader/listener that you know what these pitfalls are and have a working strategy for avoiding them. Typically this means you need to explicitly describe how you handle the step from "arbitrarily but finitely many" to "infinitely many" (or in more sophisticated phrasing: what do you do at a limit ordinal?).
A somewhat unheralded part of mathematics education is that over time you will get to see sufficiently many examples of this that you collect a toolbox of "usual tricks". When communicating in a situation where you trust everyone knows the usual tricks you can often get away with not even specifying which trick you're using, if everybody present is experienced enough to see quickly that there's one of the usual tricks that will obviously work.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For your particular example:
Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right.
would not be a convincing proof. This is not because it is in words, however -- words are perfectly fine.
But it fails to convince because the intersection is over an infinite family of sets. Your proposal would work fine for a finite intersection, in that it gives a recipe for constructing an algebraic proof that would itself be convincing. And in ordinary mathematics a convincing recipe for a convincing proof is itself as good as the real thing.
But for an infinite intersection, the algebraic calculation you're describing never ends! No matter how many steps you do, there will still be an intersection of infinitely many $A_i$s that have yet to be distributed over in your expression. So your recipe does not lead to a finite proof, and infinite things (to the extent they are "things" at all) are not convincing arguments.
There are ways to convert some cases of infinitary intuition into actual convincing proofs, but they have subtle pitfalls, so you can't get away with using them -- no matter whether with words or with symbols -- unless you also convince the reader/listener that you know what these pitfalls are and have a working strategy for avoiding them. Typically this means you need to explicitly describe how you handle the step from "arbitrarily but finitely many" to "infinitely many" (or in more sophisticated phrasing: what do you do at a limit ordinal?).
A somewhat unheralded part of mathematics education is that over time you will get to see sufficiently many examples of this that you collect a toolbox of "usual tricks". When communicating in a situation where you trust everyone knows the usual tricks you can often get away with not even specifying which trick you're using, if everybody present is experienced enough to see quickly that there's one of the usual tricks that will obviously work.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For your particular example:
Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right.
would not be a convincing proof. This is not because it is in words, however -- words are perfectly fine.
But it fails to convince because the intersection is over an infinite family of sets. Your proposal would work fine for a finite intersection, in that it gives a recipe for constructing an algebraic proof that would itself be convincing. And in ordinary mathematics a convincing recipe for a convincing proof is itself as good as the real thing.
But for an infinite intersection, the algebraic calculation you're describing never ends! No matter how many steps you do, there will still be an intersection of infinitely many $A_i$s that have yet to be distributed over in your expression. So your recipe does not lead to a finite proof, and infinite things (to the extent they are "things" at all) are not convincing arguments.
There are ways to convert some cases of infinitary intuition into actual convincing proofs, but they have subtle pitfalls, so you can't get away with using them -- no matter whether with words or with symbols -- unless you also convince the reader/listener that you know what these pitfalls are and have a working strategy for avoiding them. Typically this means you need to explicitly describe how you handle the step from "arbitrarily but finitely many" to "infinitely many" (or in more sophisticated phrasing: what do you do at a limit ordinal?).
A somewhat unheralded part of mathematics education is that over time you will get to see sufficiently many examples of this that you collect a toolbox of "usual tricks". When communicating in a situation where you trust everyone knows the usual tricks you can often get away with not even specifying which trick you're using, if everybody present is experienced enough to see quickly that there's one of the usual tricks that will obviously work.
$endgroup$
For your particular example:
Just keep distributing $A$ over and over ad nauseum and you get the term on the right.
would not be a convincing proof. This is not because it is in words, however -- words are perfectly fine.
But it fails to convince because the intersection is over an infinite family of sets. Your proposal would work fine for a finite intersection, in that it gives a recipe for constructing an algebraic proof that would itself be convincing. And in ordinary mathematics a convincing recipe for a convincing proof is itself as good as the real thing.
But for an infinite intersection, the algebraic calculation you're describing never ends! No matter how many steps you do, there will still be an intersection of infinitely many $A_i$s that have yet to be distributed over in your expression. So your recipe does not lead to a finite proof, and infinite things (to the extent they are "things" at all) are not convincing arguments.
There are ways to convert some cases of infinitary intuition into actual convincing proofs, but they have subtle pitfalls, so you can't get away with using them -- no matter whether with words or with symbols -- unless you also convince the reader/listener that you know what these pitfalls are and have a working strategy for avoiding them. Typically this means you need to explicitly describe how you handle the step from "arbitrarily but finitely many" to "infinitely many" (or in more sophisticated phrasing: what do you do at a limit ordinal?).
A somewhat unheralded part of mathematics education is that over time you will get to see sufficiently many examples of this that you collect a toolbox of "usual tricks". When communicating in a situation where you trust everyone knows the usual tricks you can often get away with not even specifying which trick you're using, if everybody present is experienced enough to see quickly that there's one of the usual tricks that will obviously work.
answered 1 hour ago
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
239k17304541
239k17304541
add a comment |
add a comment |
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I think it's great. It's airtight, erudite, and to the point. You want to keep notation under control in mathematical exposition.
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– ncmathsadist
5 hours ago
4
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There are a few formulæ to denote the objects. I'll add that you can you've really understood a problem if you can solve it in words.
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– Bernard
5 hours ago
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Eschew obfuscation. Don't use complicated symbols if you don't need to.
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– Alex S
3 hours ago
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Edward Nelson's "A PROOF OF LIOUVILLE'S THEOREM". (That paragraph is the entire Proc. Amer. Math. Soc. paper.)
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– Keith McClary
1 hour ago