What is relationship between scalar and vector product?
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I am intrested in relationship between scalar and vector product in $mathbb{R}^3$; I am going to give definitions which I will use in my question.
Scalar product - function $cdot:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})cdot vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}cdot vec{w})+beta(vec{v}cdot vec{w})$
b) $vec{u}cdotvec{v}=vec{v}cdotvec{u}$
c) $vec{u}cdot vec{u} geq 0$ and $vec{u}cdotvec{u}=0 iff vec{u}=vec{0}$
Vector product - function $times:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}^3$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})times vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}timesvec{w})+beta(vec{v}times vec{w})$
b) $vec{u} times vec{v} = -vec{v} times vec{u}$
c) $ (vec{u} times vec{v}) times vec{w} +(vec{v} times vec{w}) times vec{u}+(vec{w} times vec{u}) times vec{v}=vec{0}$
Question: We have endowed $mathbb{R}^3$ with these two structures (structure of scalar product and structure of vector product). I know that space endowed with dot product is called inner space, is there a name for a vector space endowed with vector product? Are vector product and scalar product (as I have defined them) connected structures? Can we somehow exspress vecotor prodcut via scalar product or slacar product via vector prodcut? Is there some formula which can reduce on product to another? What preciasly is connection between these two structures, and can that connection be generalized to $mathbb{R}^n$ (I do not know whether this question makes sense)?
Edit: I am hoping that if there is some connection between these two strcutures that answers not just say it, but rather explain why does this connection hold.
Thank you for any help.
linear-algebra vector-spaces inner-product-space
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am intrested in relationship between scalar and vector product in $mathbb{R}^3$; I am going to give definitions which I will use in my question.
Scalar product - function $cdot:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})cdot vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}cdot vec{w})+beta(vec{v}cdot vec{w})$
b) $vec{u}cdotvec{v}=vec{v}cdotvec{u}$
c) $vec{u}cdot vec{u} geq 0$ and $vec{u}cdotvec{u}=0 iff vec{u}=vec{0}$
Vector product - function $times:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}^3$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})times vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}timesvec{w})+beta(vec{v}times vec{w})$
b) $vec{u} times vec{v} = -vec{v} times vec{u}$
c) $ (vec{u} times vec{v}) times vec{w} +(vec{v} times vec{w}) times vec{u}+(vec{w} times vec{u}) times vec{v}=vec{0}$
Question: We have endowed $mathbb{R}^3$ with these two structures (structure of scalar product and structure of vector product). I know that space endowed with dot product is called inner space, is there a name for a vector space endowed with vector product? Are vector product and scalar product (as I have defined them) connected structures? Can we somehow exspress vecotor prodcut via scalar product or slacar product via vector prodcut? Is there some formula which can reduce on product to another? What preciasly is connection between these two structures, and can that connection be generalized to $mathbb{R}^n$ (I do not know whether this question makes sense)?
Edit: I am hoping that if there is some connection between these two strcutures that answers not just say it, but rather explain why does this connection hold.
Thank you for any help.
linear-algebra vector-spaces inner-product-space
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1
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Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
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– G.F
9 hours ago
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The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
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– Travis
9 hours ago
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I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
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– Berci
9 hours ago
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Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
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– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
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@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am intrested in relationship between scalar and vector product in $mathbb{R}^3$; I am going to give definitions which I will use in my question.
Scalar product - function $cdot:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})cdot vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}cdot vec{w})+beta(vec{v}cdot vec{w})$
b) $vec{u}cdotvec{v}=vec{v}cdotvec{u}$
c) $vec{u}cdot vec{u} geq 0$ and $vec{u}cdotvec{u}=0 iff vec{u}=vec{0}$
Vector product - function $times:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}^3$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})times vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}timesvec{w})+beta(vec{v}times vec{w})$
b) $vec{u} times vec{v} = -vec{v} times vec{u}$
c) $ (vec{u} times vec{v}) times vec{w} +(vec{v} times vec{w}) times vec{u}+(vec{w} times vec{u}) times vec{v}=vec{0}$
Question: We have endowed $mathbb{R}^3$ with these two structures (structure of scalar product and structure of vector product). I know that space endowed with dot product is called inner space, is there a name for a vector space endowed with vector product? Are vector product and scalar product (as I have defined them) connected structures? Can we somehow exspress vecotor prodcut via scalar product or slacar product via vector prodcut? Is there some formula which can reduce on product to another? What preciasly is connection between these two structures, and can that connection be generalized to $mathbb{R}^n$ (I do not know whether this question makes sense)?
Edit: I am hoping that if there is some connection between these two strcutures that answers not just say it, but rather explain why does this connection hold.
Thank you for any help.
linear-algebra vector-spaces inner-product-space
$endgroup$
I am intrested in relationship between scalar and vector product in $mathbb{R}^3$; I am going to give definitions which I will use in my question.
Scalar product - function $cdot:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})cdot vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}cdot vec{w})+beta(vec{v}cdot vec{w})$
b) $vec{u}cdotvec{v}=vec{v}cdotvec{u}$
c) $vec{u}cdot vec{u} geq 0$ and $vec{u}cdotvec{u}=0 iff vec{u}=vec{0}$
Vector product - function $times:mathbb{R}^3 times mathbb{R}^3 to mathbb{R}^3$ which satisfay following properties:
a) $(alpha vec{u}+betavec{v})times vec{w} = alpha(vec{u}timesvec{w})+beta(vec{v}times vec{w})$
b) $vec{u} times vec{v} = -vec{v} times vec{u}$
c) $ (vec{u} times vec{v}) times vec{w} +(vec{v} times vec{w}) times vec{u}+(vec{w} times vec{u}) times vec{v}=vec{0}$
Question: We have endowed $mathbb{R}^3$ with these two structures (structure of scalar product and structure of vector product). I know that space endowed with dot product is called inner space, is there a name for a vector space endowed with vector product? Are vector product and scalar product (as I have defined them) connected structures? Can we somehow exspress vecotor prodcut via scalar product or slacar product via vector prodcut? Is there some formula which can reduce on product to another? What preciasly is connection between these two structures, and can that connection be generalized to $mathbb{R}^n$ (I do not know whether this question makes sense)?
Edit: I am hoping that if there is some connection between these two strcutures that answers not just say it, but rather explain why does this connection hold.
Thank you for any help.
linear-algebra vector-spaces inner-product-space
linear-algebra vector-spaces inner-product-space
edited 9 hours ago
Thom
asked 9 hours ago
ThomThom
32219
32219
1
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Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
$endgroup$
– G.F
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
$endgroup$
– Travis
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
$endgroup$
– Berci
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
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– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
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@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
$endgroup$
– G.F
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
$endgroup$
– Travis
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
$endgroup$
– Berci
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
$endgroup$
– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
$endgroup$
– G.F
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
$endgroup$
– G.F
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
$endgroup$
– Travis
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
$endgroup$
– Travis
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
$endgroup$
– Berci
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
$endgroup$
– Berci
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
$endgroup$
– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
$endgroup$
– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
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The usual inner (dot) and cross products on $Bbb R^3$ are defined by
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + x_3 y_3, qquad
{bf x} times {bf y} = (x_2 y_3 - x_3 y_2, x_3 y_1 - x_1 y_3, x_1 y_2 - x_2 y_1) .$$
They are related by the properties
$$phantom{(ast)} qquad ({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot {bf x} = 0, qquad
({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot ({bf x} times {bf y}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf x})({bf y} cdot {bf y}) - ({bf x} cdot {bf y})^2 , qquad (ast)$$
and by the vector triple product identity,
$${bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf z}) {bf y} - ({bf x} cdot {bf y}) {bf z}.$$
By taking an appropriate trace one can derive from this formula one that recovers the dot product from the cross product:
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = -frac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}({bf z} mapsto {bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z})) .$$
One cannot, however, recover the cross product from the dot product (alone): If one replaces the "right-handed" cross product $times$ with the "left-handed" cross product ${bf x} times' {bf y} := -{bf x} times {bf y}$, we see that $times'$ still satisfies all of the above properties. Indeed, the first equation of $(ast)$ says that ${bf x} times {bf y}$ is a vector mutually orthogonal to ${bf x}$ and ${bf y}$, and the second specifies its length, but these two conditions determine ${bf x} times {bf y}$ only up to sign. Thus, we can recover $times$ from $cdot$ using $(ast)$ and a choice of orientation, i.e., a choice of "handedness". (If you know a little group theory, this situation can be viewed another way: The group of linear transformations that preserve the cross product is $SO(3)$, but the group of those that preserve the dot product is $O(3)$, in which $SO(3)$ is an index-$2$ subgroup.)
The structure defined by the three given conditions (a)-(c) satisfied by the cross product is called a Lie algebra, and usually one writes the product of $a, b$ in a Lie algebra as $[a, b]$. These are not in general called cross products however, and most don't have a nice relationship with a particular inner product like $times$ does. (Indeed, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ defines the abelian Lie algebra on $Bbb R^3$.) Instead, the term cross product is usually reserved for a map $Bbb R^n times cdots times Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ that satisfies $(ast)$, where we replace the second equation in $(ast)$ with an appropriate generalization.
To give an interesting example, suppose with identify $Bbb R^3$ with the vector space of tracefree $2 times 2$ real matrices, that is, those of the form $$pmatrix{a&b\c&-a} .$$ We can define a "cross product" on this set by
$$A times B = operatorname{tf}(AB) = A B - tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB) I$$---here $operatorname{tf} C$ just denotes the tracefree part of C. Using the above trace formula gives a "dot product" $A cdot B = tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB)$. Here I put "dot product" in quotation marks because this product is not positive-definite, i.e., doesn't satisfy property (c), but it satisfies the nondegeneracy condition that if ${bf x} cdot {bf y} = 0$ for all ${bf y}$ then ${bf x} = 0$.
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Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
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– Thom
6 hours ago
1
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No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
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– Travis
5 hours ago
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Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
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– Thom
5 hours ago
1
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No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
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– Travis
5 hours ago
1
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You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
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– Travis
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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You can easily define a scalar product in $mathbb{R}^n$, for each $ninmathbb N$, be the vector product is specific to $mathbb{R}^3$. There is a generalization to $mathbb{R}^n$, but that's a map from $(mathbb{R}^n)^{n-1}$ into $mathbb{R}^n$.
A connection betwen both operations (assuming that you are dealing with the usual dot product here) is given by the triple product: given $v,w,uinmathbb{R}^3$, $bigllvert v.(wtimes u)bigrrvert$ is the volume of the parallelepiped defined by them.
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add a comment |
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If you want to relate the two products, note that
$$|atimes b|^2 + (acdot b)^2 = |a|^2|b|^2.$$
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Well, why does that hold?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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We say $Bbb R^3$ is an exterior algebra under $times$; in such terminology it's the wedge product $land$.
Scalar-vector connections include the scalar triple product $acdot btimes c$ being fully antisymmetric, $(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=(acdot a)(bcdot b)$ and $atimes (btimes c)=(acdot c)b-(acdot b)c$.
Proofs, with implicit summation over repeated indices:
$acdot (btimes c)=varepsilon_{ijk}a_ib_jc_k$, then use $varepsilon_{ijk}$ being fully antisymmetric
$(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=a_jb_ka_mb_n(delta_{jk}delta_{lm}+varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{ilm})$, the bracketed coefficient famously being $delta_{jm}delta_{kn}$
- The left-hand side's $i$th component is $varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{klm}a_jb_mc_n=(delta_{il}delta_{jm}-delta_{im}delta_{jl})a_jb_mc_n$ as required
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How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
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– J.G.
9 hours ago
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How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
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– J.G.
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
$begingroup$
The usual inner (dot) and cross products on $Bbb R^3$ are defined by
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + x_3 y_3, qquad
{bf x} times {bf y} = (x_2 y_3 - x_3 y_2, x_3 y_1 - x_1 y_3, x_1 y_2 - x_2 y_1) .$$
They are related by the properties
$$phantom{(ast)} qquad ({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot {bf x} = 0, qquad
({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot ({bf x} times {bf y}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf x})({bf y} cdot {bf y}) - ({bf x} cdot {bf y})^2 , qquad (ast)$$
and by the vector triple product identity,
$${bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf z}) {bf y} - ({bf x} cdot {bf y}) {bf z}.$$
By taking an appropriate trace one can derive from this formula one that recovers the dot product from the cross product:
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = -frac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}({bf z} mapsto {bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z})) .$$
One cannot, however, recover the cross product from the dot product (alone): If one replaces the "right-handed" cross product $times$ with the "left-handed" cross product ${bf x} times' {bf y} := -{bf x} times {bf y}$, we see that $times'$ still satisfies all of the above properties. Indeed, the first equation of $(ast)$ says that ${bf x} times {bf y}$ is a vector mutually orthogonal to ${bf x}$ and ${bf y}$, and the second specifies its length, but these two conditions determine ${bf x} times {bf y}$ only up to sign. Thus, we can recover $times$ from $cdot$ using $(ast)$ and a choice of orientation, i.e., a choice of "handedness". (If you know a little group theory, this situation can be viewed another way: The group of linear transformations that preserve the cross product is $SO(3)$, but the group of those that preserve the dot product is $O(3)$, in which $SO(3)$ is an index-$2$ subgroup.)
The structure defined by the three given conditions (a)-(c) satisfied by the cross product is called a Lie algebra, and usually one writes the product of $a, b$ in a Lie algebra as $[a, b]$. These are not in general called cross products however, and most don't have a nice relationship with a particular inner product like $times$ does. (Indeed, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ defines the abelian Lie algebra on $Bbb R^3$.) Instead, the term cross product is usually reserved for a map $Bbb R^n times cdots times Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ that satisfies $(ast)$, where we replace the second equation in $(ast)$ with an appropriate generalization.
To give an interesting example, suppose with identify $Bbb R^3$ with the vector space of tracefree $2 times 2$ real matrices, that is, those of the form $$pmatrix{a&b\c&-a} .$$ We can define a "cross product" on this set by
$$A times B = operatorname{tf}(AB) = A B - tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB) I$$---here $operatorname{tf} C$ just denotes the tracefree part of C. Using the above trace formula gives a "dot product" $A cdot B = tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB)$. Here I put "dot product" in quotation marks because this product is not positive-definite, i.e., doesn't satisfy property (c), but it satisfies the nondegeneracy condition that if ${bf x} cdot {bf y} = 0$ for all ${bf y}$ then ${bf x} = 0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
The usual inner (dot) and cross products on $Bbb R^3$ are defined by
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + x_3 y_3, qquad
{bf x} times {bf y} = (x_2 y_3 - x_3 y_2, x_3 y_1 - x_1 y_3, x_1 y_2 - x_2 y_1) .$$
They are related by the properties
$$phantom{(ast)} qquad ({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot {bf x} = 0, qquad
({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot ({bf x} times {bf y}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf x})({bf y} cdot {bf y}) - ({bf x} cdot {bf y})^2 , qquad (ast)$$
and by the vector triple product identity,
$${bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf z}) {bf y} - ({bf x} cdot {bf y}) {bf z}.$$
By taking an appropriate trace one can derive from this formula one that recovers the dot product from the cross product:
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = -frac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}({bf z} mapsto {bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z})) .$$
One cannot, however, recover the cross product from the dot product (alone): If one replaces the "right-handed" cross product $times$ with the "left-handed" cross product ${bf x} times' {bf y} := -{bf x} times {bf y}$, we see that $times'$ still satisfies all of the above properties. Indeed, the first equation of $(ast)$ says that ${bf x} times {bf y}$ is a vector mutually orthogonal to ${bf x}$ and ${bf y}$, and the second specifies its length, but these two conditions determine ${bf x} times {bf y}$ only up to sign. Thus, we can recover $times$ from $cdot$ using $(ast)$ and a choice of orientation, i.e., a choice of "handedness". (If you know a little group theory, this situation can be viewed another way: The group of linear transformations that preserve the cross product is $SO(3)$, but the group of those that preserve the dot product is $O(3)$, in which $SO(3)$ is an index-$2$ subgroup.)
The structure defined by the three given conditions (a)-(c) satisfied by the cross product is called a Lie algebra, and usually one writes the product of $a, b$ in a Lie algebra as $[a, b]$. These are not in general called cross products however, and most don't have a nice relationship with a particular inner product like $times$ does. (Indeed, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ defines the abelian Lie algebra on $Bbb R^3$.) Instead, the term cross product is usually reserved for a map $Bbb R^n times cdots times Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ that satisfies $(ast)$, where we replace the second equation in $(ast)$ with an appropriate generalization.
To give an interesting example, suppose with identify $Bbb R^3$ with the vector space of tracefree $2 times 2$ real matrices, that is, those of the form $$pmatrix{a&b\c&-a} .$$ We can define a "cross product" on this set by
$$A times B = operatorname{tf}(AB) = A B - tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB) I$$---here $operatorname{tf} C$ just denotes the tracefree part of C. Using the above trace formula gives a "dot product" $A cdot B = tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB)$. Here I put "dot product" in quotation marks because this product is not positive-definite, i.e., doesn't satisfy property (c), but it satisfies the nondegeneracy condition that if ${bf x} cdot {bf y} = 0$ for all ${bf y}$ then ${bf x} = 0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
The usual inner (dot) and cross products on $Bbb R^3$ are defined by
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + x_3 y_3, qquad
{bf x} times {bf y} = (x_2 y_3 - x_3 y_2, x_3 y_1 - x_1 y_3, x_1 y_2 - x_2 y_1) .$$
They are related by the properties
$$phantom{(ast)} qquad ({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot {bf x} = 0, qquad
({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot ({bf x} times {bf y}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf x})({bf y} cdot {bf y}) - ({bf x} cdot {bf y})^2 , qquad (ast)$$
and by the vector triple product identity,
$${bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf z}) {bf y} - ({bf x} cdot {bf y}) {bf z}.$$
By taking an appropriate trace one can derive from this formula one that recovers the dot product from the cross product:
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = -frac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}({bf z} mapsto {bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z})) .$$
One cannot, however, recover the cross product from the dot product (alone): If one replaces the "right-handed" cross product $times$ with the "left-handed" cross product ${bf x} times' {bf y} := -{bf x} times {bf y}$, we see that $times'$ still satisfies all of the above properties. Indeed, the first equation of $(ast)$ says that ${bf x} times {bf y}$ is a vector mutually orthogonal to ${bf x}$ and ${bf y}$, and the second specifies its length, but these two conditions determine ${bf x} times {bf y}$ only up to sign. Thus, we can recover $times$ from $cdot$ using $(ast)$ and a choice of orientation, i.e., a choice of "handedness". (If you know a little group theory, this situation can be viewed another way: The group of linear transformations that preserve the cross product is $SO(3)$, but the group of those that preserve the dot product is $O(3)$, in which $SO(3)$ is an index-$2$ subgroup.)
The structure defined by the three given conditions (a)-(c) satisfied by the cross product is called a Lie algebra, and usually one writes the product of $a, b$ in a Lie algebra as $[a, b]$. These are not in general called cross products however, and most don't have a nice relationship with a particular inner product like $times$ does. (Indeed, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ defines the abelian Lie algebra on $Bbb R^3$.) Instead, the term cross product is usually reserved for a map $Bbb R^n times cdots times Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ that satisfies $(ast)$, where we replace the second equation in $(ast)$ with an appropriate generalization.
To give an interesting example, suppose with identify $Bbb R^3$ with the vector space of tracefree $2 times 2$ real matrices, that is, those of the form $$pmatrix{a&b\c&-a} .$$ We can define a "cross product" on this set by
$$A times B = operatorname{tf}(AB) = A B - tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB) I$$---here $operatorname{tf} C$ just denotes the tracefree part of C. Using the above trace formula gives a "dot product" $A cdot B = tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB)$. Here I put "dot product" in quotation marks because this product is not positive-definite, i.e., doesn't satisfy property (c), but it satisfies the nondegeneracy condition that if ${bf x} cdot {bf y} = 0$ for all ${bf y}$ then ${bf x} = 0$.
$endgroup$
The usual inner (dot) and cross products on $Bbb R^3$ are defined by
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + x_3 y_3, qquad
{bf x} times {bf y} = (x_2 y_3 - x_3 y_2, x_3 y_1 - x_1 y_3, x_1 y_2 - x_2 y_1) .$$
They are related by the properties
$$phantom{(ast)} qquad ({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot {bf x} = 0, qquad
({bf x} times {bf y}) cdot ({bf x} times {bf y}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf x})({bf y} cdot {bf y}) - ({bf x} cdot {bf y})^2 , qquad (ast)$$
and by the vector triple product identity,
$${bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z}) = ({bf x} cdot {bf z}) {bf y} - ({bf x} cdot {bf y}) {bf z}.$$
By taking an appropriate trace one can derive from this formula one that recovers the dot product from the cross product:
$${bf x} cdot {bf y} = -frac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}({bf z} mapsto {bf x} times ({bf y} times {bf z})) .$$
One cannot, however, recover the cross product from the dot product (alone): If one replaces the "right-handed" cross product $times$ with the "left-handed" cross product ${bf x} times' {bf y} := -{bf x} times {bf y}$, we see that $times'$ still satisfies all of the above properties. Indeed, the first equation of $(ast)$ says that ${bf x} times {bf y}$ is a vector mutually orthogonal to ${bf x}$ and ${bf y}$, and the second specifies its length, but these two conditions determine ${bf x} times {bf y}$ only up to sign. Thus, we can recover $times$ from $cdot$ using $(ast)$ and a choice of orientation, i.e., a choice of "handedness". (If you know a little group theory, this situation can be viewed another way: The group of linear transformations that preserve the cross product is $SO(3)$, but the group of those that preserve the dot product is $O(3)$, in which $SO(3)$ is an index-$2$ subgroup.)
The structure defined by the three given conditions (a)-(c) satisfied by the cross product is called a Lie algebra, and usually one writes the product of $a, b$ in a Lie algebra as $[a, b]$. These are not in general called cross products however, and most don't have a nice relationship with a particular inner product like $times$ does. (Indeed, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ defines the abelian Lie algebra on $Bbb R^3$.) Instead, the term cross product is usually reserved for a map $Bbb R^n times cdots times Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ that satisfies $(ast)$, where we replace the second equation in $(ast)$ with an appropriate generalization.
To give an interesting example, suppose with identify $Bbb R^3$ with the vector space of tracefree $2 times 2$ real matrices, that is, those of the form $$pmatrix{a&b\c&-a} .$$ We can define a "cross product" on this set by
$$A times B = operatorname{tf}(AB) = A B - tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB) I$$---here $operatorname{tf} C$ just denotes the tracefree part of C. Using the above trace formula gives a "dot product" $A cdot B = tfrac{1}{2} operatorname{tr}(AB)$. Here I put "dot product" in quotation marks because this product is not positive-definite, i.e., doesn't satisfy property (c), but it satisfies the nondegeneracy condition that if ${bf x} cdot {bf y} = 0$ for all ${bf y}$ then ${bf x} = 0$.
answered 8 hours ago
TravisTravis
60k767146
60k767146
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fantastic answer. However I still have some questions. Once we choose usal inner (dot) and cross product we can easily prove two formulas in * and triple product identity and formula with trace which recovers dot product from cross product. But can we prove these formulas without having to choose usal dot and cross product, only via using definig properties which I listed in the answer (if yes, how)?
$endgroup$
– Thom
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
No, one cannot prove these simply because they don't hold for all choices of $cdot$ and $times$ satisfying the properties you listed. For example, the zero map satisfies the three axioms you give for $times$, but the zero map satisfies neither the second property in $(ast)$ nor the triple product identity.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is there any general connection, or relation between dot product and cross product which must, nessecarily work for every choice of dot and cross product or they can be choosen complatley independently?
$endgroup$
– Thom
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
No, you cannot pick $times$ and $cdot$ independently, at least if you want the usual identities to be satisfied: Even if you pick a cross product $times$ for which the above trace formula gives an inner product (there are infinitely many choices, but they're all qualitatively equivalent), you're obliged to take that inner product if you want $(ast)$ and the triple product identity to hold. Once you do, though, all of the usual identities (in particular those in my answer) follow.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful. You might be interested, by the way, in reading up on how the dot and cross product on $Bbb R^3$ can be described in terms of quaternions. From that point of view, all of the properties of those products, as well as the identities relating them, can be viewed as easy consequences of quaternion identities.
$endgroup$
– Travis
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
You can easily define a scalar product in $mathbb{R}^n$, for each $ninmathbb N$, be the vector product is specific to $mathbb{R}^3$. There is a generalization to $mathbb{R}^n$, but that's a map from $(mathbb{R}^n)^{n-1}$ into $mathbb{R}^n$.
A connection betwen both operations (assuming that you are dealing with the usual dot product here) is given by the triple product: given $v,w,uinmathbb{R}^3$, $bigllvert v.(wtimes u)bigrrvert$ is the volume of the parallelepiped defined by them.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can easily define a scalar product in $mathbb{R}^n$, for each $ninmathbb N$, be the vector product is specific to $mathbb{R}^3$. There is a generalization to $mathbb{R}^n$, but that's a map from $(mathbb{R}^n)^{n-1}$ into $mathbb{R}^n$.
A connection betwen both operations (assuming that you are dealing with the usual dot product here) is given by the triple product: given $v,w,uinmathbb{R}^3$, $bigllvert v.(wtimes u)bigrrvert$ is the volume of the parallelepiped defined by them.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can easily define a scalar product in $mathbb{R}^n$, for each $ninmathbb N$, be the vector product is specific to $mathbb{R}^3$. There is a generalization to $mathbb{R}^n$, but that's a map from $(mathbb{R}^n)^{n-1}$ into $mathbb{R}^n$.
A connection betwen both operations (assuming that you are dealing with the usual dot product here) is given by the triple product: given $v,w,uinmathbb{R}^3$, $bigllvert v.(wtimes u)bigrrvert$ is the volume of the parallelepiped defined by them.
$endgroup$
You can easily define a scalar product in $mathbb{R}^n$, for each $ninmathbb N$, be the vector product is specific to $mathbb{R}^3$. There is a generalization to $mathbb{R}^n$, but that's a map from $(mathbb{R}^n)^{n-1}$ into $mathbb{R}^n$.
A connection betwen both operations (assuming that you are dealing with the usual dot product here) is given by the triple product: given $v,w,uinmathbb{R}^3$, $bigllvert v.(wtimes u)bigrrvert$ is the volume of the parallelepiped defined by them.
answered 9 hours ago
José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos
155k22124227
155k22124227
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you want to relate the two products, note that
$$|atimes b|^2 + (acdot b)^2 = |a|^2|b|^2.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, why does that hold?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you want to relate the two products, note that
$$|atimes b|^2 + (acdot b)^2 = |a|^2|b|^2.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, why does that hold?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you want to relate the two products, note that
$$|atimes b|^2 + (acdot b)^2 = |a|^2|b|^2.$$
$endgroup$
If you want to relate the two products, note that
$$|atimes b|^2 + (acdot b)^2 = |a|^2|b|^2.$$
answered 9 hours ago
B. GoddardB. Goddard
18.6k21340
18.6k21340
$begingroup$
Well, why does that hold?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, why does that hold?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
$endgroup$
– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, why does that hold?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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Well, why does that hold?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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@Thom The left side equals $(|a||b|sintheta)^2 + (|a||b|costheta)^2.$
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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Where did I assume standard definition of scalar product? Or somehow for all scalar products we can write $vec{a}cdot vec{b}=|a||b|cos(theta)$ ?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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@Thom You didn't. But now you're assuming a certain definition of the angle between two vectors. Your products imply some sort of orthagonality.
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– B. Goddard
9 hours ago
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we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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we can use this: $cos(theta) = (vec{a} cdot vec{b})/(|a||b|)$ to define something which we call angle $theta$ between two vectors. Why would that same $theta$ go nesscarily into definition of vector product in this manner $vec{a} times vec{b} = |a||b|sin(theta)$?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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We say $Bbb R^3$ is an exterior algebra under $times$; in such terminology it's the wedge product $land$.
Scalar-vector connections include the scalar triple product $acdot btimes c$ being fully antisymmetric, $(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=(acdot a)(bcdot b)$ and $atimes (btimes c)=(acdot c)b-(acdot b)c$.
Proofs, with implicit summation over repeated indices:
$acdot (btimes c)=varepsilon_{ijk}a_ib_jc_k$, then use $varepsilon_{ijk}$ being fully antisymmetric
$(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=a_jb_ka_mb_n(delta_{jk}delta_{lm}+varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{ilm})$, the bracketed coefficient famously being $delta_{jm}delta_{kn}$
- The left-hand side's $i$th component is $varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{klm}a_jb_mc_n=(delta_{il}delta_{jm}-delta_{im}delta_{jl})a_jb_mc_n$ as required
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How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
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– J.G.
9 hours ago
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How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
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– Thom
9 hours ago
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@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We say $Bbb R^3$ is an exterior algebra under $times$; in such terminology it's the wedge product $land$.
Scalar-vector connections include the scalar triple product $acdot btimes c$ being fully antisymmetric, $(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=(acdot a)(bcdot b)$ and $atimes (btimes c)=(acdot c)b-(acdot b)c$.
Proofs, with implicit summation over repeated indices:
$acdot (btimes c)=varepsilon_{ijk}a_ib_jc_k$, then use $varepsilon_{ijk}$ being fully antisymmetric
$(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=a_jb_ka_mb_n(delta_{jk}delta_{lm}+varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{ilm})$, the bracketed coefficient famously being $delta_{jm}delta_{kn}$
- The left-hand side's $i$th component is $varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{klm}a_jb_mc_n=(delta_{il}delta_{jm}-delta_{im}delta_{jl})a_jb_mc_n$ as required
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We say $Bbb R^3$ is an exterior algebra under $times$; in such terminology it's the wedge product $land$.
Scalar-vector connections include the scalar triple product $acdot btimes c$ being fully antisymmetric, $(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=(acdot a)(bcdot b)$ and $atimes (btimes c)=(acdot c)b-(acdot b)c$.
Proofs, with implicit summation over repeated indices:
$acdot (btimes c)=varepsilon_{ijk}a_ib_jc_k$, then use $varepsilon_{ijk}$ being fully antisymmetric
$(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=a_jb_ka_mb_n(delta_{jk}delta_{lm}+varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{ilm})$, the bracketed coefficient famously being $delta_{jm}delta_{kn}$
- The left-hand side's $i$th component is $varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{klm}a_jb_mc_n=(delta_{il}delta_{jm}-delta_{im}delta_{jl})a_jb_mc_n$ as required
$endgroup$
We say $Bbb R^3$ is an exterior algebra under $times$; in such terminology it's the wedge product $land$.
Scalar-vector connections include the scalar triple product $acdot btimes c$ being fully antisymmetric, $(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=(acdot a)(bcdot b)$ and $atimes (btimes c)=(acdot c)b-(acdot b)c$.
Proofs, with implicit summation over repeated indices:
$acdot (btimes c)=varepsilon_{ijk}a_ib_jc_k$, then use $varepsilon_{ijk}$ being fully antisymmetric
$(acdot b)^2+(atimes b)cdot(atimes b)=a_jb_ka_mb_n(delta_{jk}delta_{lm}+varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{ilm})$, the bracketed coefficient famously being $delta_{jm}delta_{kn}$
- The left-hand side's $i$th component is $varepsilon_{ijk}varepsilon_{klm}a_jb_mc_n=(delta_{il}delta_{jm}-delta_{im}delta_{jl})a_jb_mc_n$ as required
edited 9 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
J.G.J.G.
24.4k22539
24.4k22539
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How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do we prove these connections and are those the only one?
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thorn They can all be proven from Levi-CIvita identities, but I don't think there are further connections that don't reduce to these.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How can they be proven? I was expacting that if there were some connection between that answers would not just say it but tell why it holds.
$endgroup$
– Thom
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Thom That's a fair request. See my edit.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Maybe the concept of exterior algebra is the genralization you are looking for.
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– G.F
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The properties listed for $times$ do hold, but they don't make for a satisfactory definition. After all, the zero map $Bbb R^3 times Bbb R^3 to Bbb R^3$ satisfies all three.
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– Travis
9 hours ago
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I think it's rather the Lie algebras.
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– Berci
9 hours ago
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Why has nobody mentioned the geometric product? That combines the dot and cross products, and it generalizes to any number of dimensions. The dot product is the symmetric part, and the cross product is (the dual of) the antisymmetric part, of the geometric product. $$acdot b=frac{ab+ba}{2}$$ $$atimes b=Ifrac{ab-ba}{2}=I(awedge b)$$ See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
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– mr_e_man
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@mr_e_man What is geometric product (and why it is called that) ? Where can I learn about it?
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– Thom
5 hours ago