How should we understand Gen 31:24 in view of the context (i.e., Laban speaks to Jacob) and an apparent...
How should we understand Gen 31:24 in view of the context (i.e., Laban speaks to Jacob) and an apparent Hebrew language nuance?
The King James Version (“KJV”) provides a marginal note at Gen 31:24 that indicates that the text segment “either good or bad” is “from good to bad” in Hebrew.
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad. {either...: Heb. from good to bad}
hebrew genesis translation-philosophy kjv
add a comment |
How should we understand Gen 31:24 in view of the context (i.e., Laban speaks to Jacob) and an apparent Hebrew language nuance?
The King James Version (“KJV”) provides a marginal note at Gen 31:24 that indicates that the text segment “either good or bad” is “from good to bad” in Hebrew.
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad. {either...: Heb. from good to bad}
hebrew genesis translation-philosophy kjv
1
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
1
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago
add a comment |
How should we understand Gen 31:24 in view of the context (i.e., Laban speaks to Jacob) and an apparent Hebrew language nuance?
The King James Version (“KJV”) provides a marginal note at Gen 31:24 that indicates that the text segment “either good or bad” is “from good to bad” in Hebrew.
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad. {either...: Heb. from good to bad}
hebrew genesis translation-philosophy kjv
How should we understand Gen 31:24 in view of the context (i.e., Laban speaks to Jacob) and an apparent Hebrew language nuance?
The King James Version (“KJV”) provides a marginal note at Gen 31:24 that indicates that the text segment “either good or bad” is “from good to bad” in Hebrew.
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad. {either...: Heb. from good to bad}
hebrew genesis translation-philosophy kjv
hebrew genesis translation-philosophy kjv
edited 5 hours ago
Der Übermensch
3,026328
3,026328
asked 5 hours ago
InfinitelyManicInfinitelyManic
1916
1916
1
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
1
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
1
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago
1
1
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
1
1
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Trying to perceive Hebrew with a western understanding can be tricky because not everything fits.
Hebrew doesn’t really have the word evil, ra is really just bad and good is tob or tov but they are seen as balancing each other. One cannot exist without the other.
Take light and dark. Westerners see light as good and dark as bad but an easterner sees them as functional and disfinctional (non functional)
So when Laban is told say neither good nor bad
It helps me to phrase it a little like this
Don’t say anything functional or disfinctional
Don’t say anything with intention to act or without intention to act
Don’t threaten Jacob with intention or without intention
I feel it means don’t threaten Jacob
Same with Absalom he didn’t threaten his brother. He said neither good nor bad. He gave his brother no reason to feel threatened.
What I don’t think it means is, ignore
add a comment |
The Hebrew phrase in question is מִטּוֹב עַד־רָע (metov ad ra), literally “from good to bad.”
According to Gesenius on מן...עד (min...ad),1
There are used in opposition to each other—(α) מִן אֶל … from … unto (see אֶל let. a, 1); often for tam, quam, whether, or. Psa. 144:13, מִזַּן אֶל־וַן “from kind to kind,” i.e. things of every kind.—(β) מִן … עִד and מִן … וְעַד. Lev. 13:12, מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד רַגְלָיו “from his head to his feet;” Isaiah 1:6; 1 Ki. 6:24. This phrase is often used when all things are without distinction to be included, as if from beginning to end, from extremity to extremity. Jon. 3:5, מִגְּדֹלָם וְעַד קְטַנָּם “from the highest to the lowest,” i.e. all; hence it often is tam, quam, both … and, Ex. 22:3; Deu. 29:10; 1 Sa. 30:19; and with a particle of negation, neither, nor. Gen. 14:23, אִם מִחוּט וְעַד שְׁרוֹךְ־נַעַל “neither a thread nor a shoe latchet;” Gen. 31:24.—(γ) מִן … -ָ֫ה. Eze. 25:13, מִתֵּימָן … וּדְדָ֫נָה “from Teman … even to Dedan.”
The particle of negation in the clause in question is פֶּן (pen)2 which precedes the verb תְּדַבֵּר.
Hence, the phrase
וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּן־תְּדַבֵּר עִם־יַעֲקֹב מִטּוֹב עַד־רָֽע
would be translated as,
And he said to him, “Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.
or
And he said to him, “Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.
In summary, it is a Hebrew idiom,3 since, as you stated in your comment, we [English-speakers] do not speak in this manner. While it can be translated verbatim into English, it would be nonsensical, hence it must be interpreted. Gesenius discusses the occurrences of this phrase and its meaning when translated into English. (Unfortunately, I do not think Gesenius really requires further clarification. Simply read what he is saying. Focus particularly on the bold-faced elements.)
Footnotes
1 Gesenius, p. 483, מִן and מִ·, number (3)
2id., p. 678, פֵּן:
II. פֵּן pr. subst. removing, taking away (from the root פָּנָה PI. No. 1), always in constr. פֶּן־ (followed by Makkeph) it becomes a conj. of removing, prohibiting, hindering, i.q. μή, ne, lest.
3idiom (n.): a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
References
Gesenius, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm. Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. Trans. Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux. London: Bagster, 1860.
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Trying to perceive Hebrew with a western understanding can be tricky because not everything fits.
Hebrew doesn’t really have the word evil, ra is really just bad and good is tob or tov but they are seen as balancing each other. One cannot exist without the other.
Take light and dark. Westerners see light as good and dark as bad but an easterner sees them as functional and disfinctional (non functional)
So when Laban is told say neither good nor bad
It helps me to phrase it a little like this
Don’t say anything functional or disfinctional
Don’t say anything with intention to act or without intention to act
Don’t threaten Jacob with intention or without intention
I feel it means don’t threaten Jacob
Same with Absalom he didn’t threaten his brother. He said neither good nor bad. He gave his brother no reason to feel threatened.
What I don’t think it means is, ignore
add a comment |
Trying to perceive Hebrew with a western understanding can be tricky because not everything fits.
Hebrew doesn’t really have the word evil, ra is really just bad and good is tob or tov but they are seen as balancing each other. One cannot exist without the other.
Take light and dark. Westerners see light as good and dark as bad but an easterner sees them as functional and disfinctional (non functional)
So when Laban is told say neither good nor bad
It helps me to phrase it a little like this
Don’t say anything functional or disfinctional
Don’t say anything with intention to act or without intention to act
Don’t threaten Jacob with intention or without intention
I feel it means don’t threaten Jacob
Same with Absalom he didn’t threaten his brother. He said neither good nor bad. He gave his brother no reason to feel threatened.
What I don’t think it means is, ignore
add a comment |
Trying to perceive Hebrew with a western understanding can be tricky because not everything fits.
Hebrew doesn’t really have the word evil, ra is really just bad and good is tob or tov but they are seen as balancing each other. One cannot exist without the other.
Take light and dark. Westerners see light as good and dark as bad but an easterner sees them as functional and disfinctional (non functional)
So when Laban is told say neither good nor bad
It helps me to phrase it a little like this
Don’t say anything functional or disfinctional
Don’t say anything with intention to act or without intention to act
Don’t threaten Jacob with intention or without intention
I feel it means don’t threaten Jacob
Same with Absalom he didn’t threaten his brother. He said neither good nor bad. He gave his brother no reason to feel threatened.
What I don’t think it means is, ignore
Trying to perceive Hebrew with a western understanding can be tricky because not everything fits.
Hebrew doesn’t really have the word evil, ra is really just bad and good is tob or tov but they are seen as balancing each other. One cannot exist without the other.
Take light and dark. Westerners see light as good and dark as bad but an easterner sees them as functional and disfinctional (non functional)
So when Laban is told say neither good nor bad
It helps me to phrase it a little like this
Don’t say anything functional or disfinctional
Don’t say anything with intention to act or without intention to act
Don’t threaten Jacob with intention or without intention
I feel it means don’t threaten Jacob
Same with Absalom he didn’t threaten his brother. He said neither good nor bad. He gave his brother no reason to feel threatened.
What I don’t think it means is, ignore
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Mr ConstantinMr Constantin
43211
43211
add a comment |
add a comment |
The Hebrew phrase in question is מִטּוֹב עַד־רָע (metov ad ra), literally “from good to bad.”
According to Gesenius on מן...עד (min...ad),1
There are used in opposition to each other—(α) מִן אֶל … from … unto (see אֶל let. a, 1); often for tam, quam, whether, or. Psa. 144:13, מִזַּן אֶל־וַן “from kind to kind,” i.e. things of every kind.—(β) מִן … עִד and מִן … וְעַד. Lev. 13:12, מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד רַגְלָיו “from his head to his feet;” Isaiah 1:6; 1 Ki. 6:24. This phrase is often used when all things are without distinction to be included, as if from beginning to end, from extremity to extremity. Jon. 3:5, מִגְּדֹלָם וְעַד קְטַנָּם “from the highest to the lowest,” i.e. all; hence it often is tam, quam, both … and, Ex. 22:3; Deu. 29:10; 1 Sa. 30:19; and with a particle of negation, neither, nor. Gen. 14:23, אִם מִחוּט וְעַד שְׁרוֹךְ־נַעַל “neither a thread nor a shoe latchet;” Gen. 31:24.—(γ) מִן … -ָ֫ה. Eze. 25:13, מִתֵּימָן … וּדְדָ֫נָה “from Teman … even to Dedan.”
The particle of negation in the clause in question is פֶּן (pen)2 which precedes the verb תְּדַבֵּר.
Hence, the phrase
וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּן־תְּדַבֵּר עִם־יַעֲקֹב מִטּוֹב עַד־רָֽע
would be translated as,
And he said to him, “Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.
or
And he said to him, “Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.
In summary, it is a Hebrew idiom,3 since, as you stated in your comment, we [English-speakers] do not speak in this manner. While it can be translated verbatim into English, it would be nonsensical, hence it must be interpreted. Gesenius discusses the occurrences of this phrase and its meaning when translated into English. (Unfortunately, I do not think Gesenius really requires further clarification. Simply read what he is saying. Focus particularly on the bold-faced elements.)
Footnotes
1 Gesenius, p. 483, מִן and מִ·, number (3)
2id., p. 678, פֵּן:
II. פֵּן pr. subst. removing, taking away (from the root פָּנָה PI. No. 1), always in constr. פֶּן־ (followed by Makkeph) it becomes a conj. of removing, prohibiting, hindering, i.q. μή, ne, lest.
3idiom (n.): a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
References
Gesenius, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm. Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. Trans. Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux. London: Bagster, 1860.
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
add a comment |
The Hebrew phrase in question is מִטּוֹב עַד־רָע (metov ad ra), literally “from good to bad.”
According to Gesenius on מן...עד (min...ad),1
There are used in opposition to each other—(α) מִן אֶל … from … unto (see אֶל let. a, 1); often for tam, quam, whether, or. Psa. 144:13, מִזַּן אֶל־וַן “from kind to kind,” i.e. things of every kind.—(β) מִן … עִד and מִן … וְעַד. Lev. 13:12, מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד רַגְלָיו “from his head to his feet;” Isaiah 1:6; 1 Ki. 6:24. This phrase is often used when all things are without distinction to be included, as if from beginning to end, from extremity to extremity. Jon. 3:5, מִגְּדֹלָם וְעַד קְטַנָּם “from the highest to the lowest,” i.e. all; hence it often is tam, quam, both … and, Ex. 22:3; Deu. 29:10; 1 Sa. 30:19; and with a particle of negation, neither, nor. Gen. 14:23, אִם מִחוּט וְעַד שְׁרוֹךְ־נַעַל “neither a thread nor a shoe latchet;” Gen. 31:24.—(γ) מִן … -ָ֫ה. Eze. 25:13, מִתֵּימָן … וּדְדָ֫נָה “from Teman … even to Dedan.”
The particle of negation in the clause in question is פֶּן (pen)2 which precedes the verb תְּדַבֵּר.
Hence, the phrase
וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּן־תְּדַבֵּר עִם־יַעֲקֹב מִטּוֹב עַד־רָֽע
would be translated as,
And he said to him, “Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.
or
And he said to him, “Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.
In summary, it is a Hebrew idiom,3 since, as you stated in your comment, we [English-speakers] do not speak in this manner. While it can be translated verbatim into English, it would be nonsensical, hence it must be interpreted. Gesenius discusses the occurrences of this phrase and its meaning when translated into English. (Unfortunately, I do not think Gesenius really requires further clarification. Simply read what he is saying. Focus particularly on the bold-faced elements.)
Footnotes
1 Gesenius, p. 483, מִן and מִ·, number (3)
2id., p. 678, פֵּן:
II. פֵּן pr. subst. removing, taking away (from the root פָּנָה PI. No. 1), always in constr. פֶּן־ (followed by Makkeph) it becomes a conj. of removing, prohibiting, hindering, i.q. μή, ne, lest.
3idiom (n.): a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
References
Gesenius, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm. Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. Trans. Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux. London: Bagster, 1860.
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
add a comment |
The Hebrew phrase in question is מִטּוֹב עַד־רָע (metov ad ra), literally “from good to bad.”
According to Gesenius on מן...עד (min...ad),1
There are used in opposition to each other—(α) מִן אֶל … from … unto (see אֶל let. a, 1); often for tam, quam, whether, or. Psa. 144:13, מִזַּן אֶל־וַן “from kind to kind,” i.e. things of every kind.—(β) מִן … עִד and מִן … וְעַד. Lev. 13:12, מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד רַגְלָיו “from his head to his feet;” Isaiah 1:6; 1 Ki. 6:24. This phrase is often used when all things are without distinction to be included, as if from beginning to end, from extremity to extremity. Jon. 3:5, מִגְּדֹלָם וְעַד קְטַנָּם “from the highest to the lowest,” i.e. all; hence it often is tam, quam, both … and, Ex. 22:3; Deu. 29:10; 1 Sa. 30:19; and with a particle of negation, neither, nor. Gen. 14:23, אִם מִחוּט וְעַד שְׁרוֹךְ־נַעַל “neither a thread nor a shoe latchet;” Gen. 31:24.—(γ) מִן … -ָ֫ה. Eze. 25:13, מִתֵּימָן … וּדְדָ֫נָה “from Teman … even to Dedan.”
The particle of negation in the clause in question is פֶּן (pen)2 which precedes the verb תְּדַבֵּר.
Hence, the phrase
וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּן־תְּדַבֵּר עִם־יַעֲקֹב מִטּוֹב עַד־רָֽע
would be translated as,
And he said to him, “Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.
or
And he said to him, “Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.
In summary, it is a Hebrew idiom,3 since, as you stated in your comment, we [English-speakers] do not speak in this manner. While it can be translated verbatim into English, it would be nonsensical, hence it must be interpreted. Gesenius discusses the occurrences of this phrase and its meaning when translated into English. (Unfortunately, I do not think Gesenius really requires further clarification. Simply read what he is saying. Focus particularly on the bold-faced elements.)
Footnotes
1 Gesenius, p. 483, מִן and מִ·, number (3)
2id., p. 678, פֵּן:
II. פֵּן pr. subst. removing, taking away (from the root פָּנָה PI. No. 1), always in constr. פֶּן־ (followed by Makkeph) it becomes a conj. of removing, prohibiting, hindering, i.q. μή, ne, lest.
3idiom (n.): a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
References
Gesenius, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm. Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. Trans. Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux. London: Bagster, 1860.
The Hebrew phrase in question is מִטּוֹב עַד־רָע (metov ad ra), literally “from good to bad.”
According to Gesenius on מן...עד (min...ad),1
There are used in opposition to each other—(α) מִן אֶל … from … unto (see אֶל let. a, 1); often for tam, quam, whether, or. Psa. 144:13, מִזַּן אֶל־וַן “from kind to kind,” i.e. things of every kind.—(β) מִן … עִד and מִן … וְעַד. Lev. 13:12, מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד רַגְלָיו “from his head to his feet;” Isaiah 1:6; 1 Ki. 6:24. This phrase is often used when all things are without distinction to be included, as if from beginning to end, from extremity to extremity. Jon. 3:5, מִגְּדֹלָם וְעַד קְטַנָּם “from the highest to the lowest,” i.e. all; hence it often is tam, quam, both … and, Ex. 22:3; Deu. 29:10; 1 Sa. 30:19; and with a particle of negation, neither, nor. Gen. 14:23, אִם מִחוּט וְעַד שְׁרוֹךְ־נַעַל “neither a thread nor a shoe latchet;” Gen. 31:24.—(γ) מִן … -ָ֫ה. Eze. 25:13, מִתֵּימָן … וּדְדָ֫נָה “from Teman … even to Dedan.”
The particle of negation in the clause in question is פֶּן (pen)2 which precedes the verb תְּדַבֵּר.
Hence, the phrase
וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּן־תְּדַבֵּר עִם־יַעֲקֹב מִטּוֹב עַד־רָֽע
would be translated as,
And he said to him, “Be careful that you do not speak to Jacob either good or bad.
or
And he said to him, “Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.
In summary, it is a Hebrew idiom,3 since, as you stated in your comment, we [English-speakers] do not speak in this manner. While it can be translated verbatim into English, it would be nonsensical, hence it must be interpreted. Gesenius discusses the occurrences of this phrase and its meaning when translated into English. (Unfortunately, I do not think Gesenius really requires further clarification. Simply read what he is saying. Focus particularly on the bold-faced elements.)
Footnotes
1 Gesenius, p. 483, מִן and מִ·, number (3)
2id., p. 678, פֵּן:
II. פֵּן pr. subst. removing, taking away (from the root פָּנָה PI. No. 1), always in constr. פֶּן־ (followed by Makkeph) it becomes a conj. of removing, prohibiting, hindering, i.q. μή, ne, lest.
3idiom (n.): a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
References
Gesenius, Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm. Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. Trans. Tregelles, Samuel Prideaux. London: Bagster, 1860.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Der ÜbermenschDer Übermensch
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3,026328
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
Can you perhaps provide a summary of your answer (i.e., citation); which still leaves a bit of vagueness to the English-only speaker since since we simply don't speak in this manner.
– InfinitelyManic
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Also occurs in II Samuel 13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad.
– Nigel J
5 hours ago
@NigelJ - Yes. So is this a Hebrew idiom or figure of speech?
– InfinitelyManic
5 hours ago
1
I'm not able to say as I do not have sufficient knowledge of Hebrew. I just remembered the other occurrence of it in English. It seems to mean that one is careful in the presence of someone, neither criticising nor applauding, remaining completely neutral. For different reasons, I would say, from the two occurrences.
– Nigel J
4 hours ago