Is it normal for an instructor to refuse to tell students their current grade?












1















I want to know what my current grade in a particular class is. The professor says she refuses to tell us our grades. The syllabus mentions the same policy.



Is this normal? What should I do?










share|improve this question









New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 6





    This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

    – BrianH
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

    – Nate Eldredge
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    @NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago
















1















I want to know what my current grade in a particular class is. The professor says she refuses to tell us our grades. The syllabus mentions the same policy.



Is this normal? What should I do?










share|improve this question









New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 6





    This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

    – BrianH
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

    – Nate Eldredge
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    @NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago














1












1








1








I want to know what my current grade in a particular class is. The professor says she refuses to tell us our grades. The syllabus mentions the same policy.



Is this normal? What should I do?










share|improve this question









New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












I want to know what my current grade in a particular class is. The professor says she refuses to tell us our grades. The syllabus mentions the same policy.



Is this normal? What should I do?







professors grades gpa






share|improve this question









New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago









cag51

14.5k53256




14.5k53256






New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 8 hours ago









J.J.JamesonJ.J.Jameson

63




63




New contributor




J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






J.J.Jameson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 6





    This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

    – BrianH
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

    – Nate Eldredge
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    @NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago














  • 6





    This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

    – BrianH
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

    – Nate Eldredge
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    @NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago






  • 3





    @solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

    – Anonymous Physicist
    7 hours ago








6




6





This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

– BrianH
8 hours ago





This is sufficiently odd that I've never heard of such a policy. Have you checked the syllabus to see exactly how the policy is stated? This is reasonable if it is of the form "I am not going to calculate a provisional grade for you - you have all the grades you've gotten on assignments and can calculate it on your own". Some courses also don't even have provisional grades, only the grade from the final exam. We'll need to know a bit more to be able to advise you.

– BrianH
8 hours ago




2




2





Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

– Peter Shor
8 hours ago





Some universities require that the grading policies be laid out in advance (e.g.: 40% final, 30% homework, 30% project). If you actually have the assignments you've done, you might be able to compute this for yourself. Other universities have no such regulation, in which case you might be stuck.

– Peter Shor
8 hours ago




1




1





If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago





If you want to know what is "allowed" you'll have to consult your university's own regulations. There is no universal set of laws for education.

– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago




2




2





@NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

– Anonymous Physicist
7 hours ago





@NateEldredge that would be really annoying to me. Undergraduates should not need help checking their arithmetic.

– Anonymous Physicist
7 hours ago




3




3





@solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

– Anonymous Physicist
7 hours ago





@solarmike I view this as a question about pedagogical technique, which is definitely on topic.

– Anonymous Physicist
7 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















4














I've been that professor several times. Much to my own chagrin, there often is no such thing as "the current grade". On a typical day during a typical semester, there are scores for homeworks, quizzes, midterms and whatever other assessments have been completed so far, and there is a formula in the syllabus that computes a "final score" from all the assessment scores, but:




  1. the formula assumes all scores to be known, not just the first few. Extrapolating is not trivial, particularly if the rules include things like "the lowest homework score will be dropped" or "later midterms will be weighted more" or "the first homework will be dropped if the next ones show improvement".


  2. the cutoffs for the grades are rarely decided upon in advance; they often are determined by looking through students's work (the final midterm or exam is particularly good for that, being fresh in the lecturer's mind) and clustering students into categories (e.g., if you see someone doing really good work, you put that student into the A-cluster, so the cutoff for A will be no higher than their score). Some lecturers also curve based on pre-determined ratios (something I avoid, but I've heard of lecturers forced to do this by the admininstration), but again it is impossible to predict the final relative position of a student just based on their current status, as some students improve heavily during the semester.



So computing a "current grade" is a nontrivial exercise in forecasting -- and a thankless one, as the reward curve is biased to the negative (getting students' grades right will net you some thanks; getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action). Teaching is hard enough without it.






share|improve this answer
























  • getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

    – Elizabeth Henning
    1 hour ago








  • 3





    @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

    – darij grinberg
    1 hour ago





















3














There may be an actual reason for the policy. In particular your professor may take more into consideration than can be captured in any intermediate "average". For an example of what can happen, I once took a physics course that had five exams, the last being the final. My grades for the exams were, in order: F, D, C, B, and A. My "average" all along the way was pretty dismal. The final grade I was assigned (I won't say earned, I guess) was A. I was a happy camper. The prof actually had a reputation as being very strict.



Without knowing more it is impossible to judge whether the professor is being rational or not.



For what it's worth, the reason for the first F was that I "crammed" and stayed up all night before the exam. Well, one reason, anyway. It was open-book, also.






share|improve this answer

































    1














    You sound like you are very concerned about your past grades. Students who pay a lot of attention to their past grades tend to believe they cannot control what they learn, because it is a fixed number. Psychologists call this an "external locus of control." External locus of control can reduce the amount of effort students put into learning.



    Students who pay a lot of attention to what they need to do in the future in order to learn have an "internal locus of control." They believe their decisions determine what they will learn. These students tend to put in more effort and study more efficiently.



    It is a legitimate pedagogical approach for professors to refuse to discuss grades with students. When doing so, it is important to guide students to thinking about things they can choose to do which will help them learn. This can help students view their futures as being something they believe they can control by making good choices. Such beliefs lead to good choices.



    Of course, it's possible your professor does not want to discuss your grades because they do not know what they are.



    Regardless of the reasons, it is unlikely your professor is required to provide grades before the end of the course.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

      – Solar Mike
      6 hours ago











    • How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

      – Captain Emacs
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

      – Dan Romik
      1 hour ago






    • 1





      @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

      – Anonymous Physicist
      1 hour ago






    • 1





      In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

      – Dan Romik
      57 mins ago



















    0














    Personally I think an instructor ought to maintain a running grade count, but it is conceivable that one might not. Might only do the data entry and calculation at the end. Or maybe wants to retain ability to finesse the grades a bit (will only be done in your favor unless a snake, though).



    I doubt there is a policy requiring the prof to give interim grading instruction, but of course you could check. There is a big difference between "required" and optimal.



    For what it is worth, I went to a school that had formal, published interim grades every 4 weeks, during 16 week semesters. Most people hated this more than like it since it could create academic sanctions...






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.




























      0














      I've actually seen this a lot, and I think it's completely reprehensible. The reasoning is ostensibly that the only "grade" is the final grade, which cannot be accurately determined until after the final exam.



      Unfortunately, you're not going to get anywhere with this instructor trying to get her to budge on this. You might have more luck with asking her a more noncommittal question, such as "How am I doing in the course?" or by asking her for advice about how you can do better (even if you're already doing well).



      As someone who's TA'd for professors with this ridiculous policy, I can tell you that badgering the TA won't help. The TA doesn't know either. Really.






      share|improve this answer























        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "415"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: true,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: 10,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });






        J.J.Jameson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2facademia.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f124722%2fis-it-normal-for-an-instructor-to-refuse-to-tell-students-their-current-grade%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes








        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        4














        I've been that professor several times. Much to my own chagrin, there often is no such thing as "the current grade". On a typical day during a typical semester, there are scores for homeworks, quizzes, midterms and whatever other assessments have been completed so far, and there is a formula in the syllabus that computes a "final score" from all the assessment scores, but:




        1. the formula assumes all scores to be known, not just the first few. Extrapolating is not trivial, particularly if the rules include things like "the lowest homework score will be dropped" or "later midterms will be weighted more" or "the first homework will be dropped if the next ones show improvement".


        2. the cutoffs for the grades are rarely decided upon in advance; they often are determined by looking through students's work (the final midterm or exam is particularly good for that, being fresh in the lecturer's mind) and clustering students into categories (e.g., if you see someone doing really good work, you put that student into the A-cluster, so the cutoff for A will be no higher than their score). Some lecturers also curve based on pre-determined ratios (something I avoid, but I've heard of lecturers forced to do this by the admininstration), but again it is impossible to predict the final relative position of a student just based on their current status, as some students improve heavily during the semester.



        So computing a "current grade" is a nontrivial exercise in forecasting -- and a thankless one, as the reward curve is biased to the negative (getting students' grades right will net you some thanks; getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action). Teaching is hard enough without it.






        share|improve this answer
























        • getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

          – Elizabeth Henning
          1 hour ago








        • 3





          @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

          – darij grinberg
          1 hour ago


















        4














        I've been that professor several times. Much to my own chagrin, there often is no such thing as "the current grade". On a typical day during a typical semester, there are scores for homeworks, quizzes, midterms and whatever other assessments have been completed so far, and there is a formula in the syllabus that computes a "final score" from all the assessment scores, but:




        1. the formula assumes all scores to be known, not just the first few. Extrapolating is not trivial, particularly if the rules include things like "the lowest homework score will be dropped" or "later midterms will be weighted more" or "the first homework will be dropped if the next ones show improvement".


        2. the cutoffs for the grades are rarely decided upon in advance; they often are determined by looking through students's work (the final midterm or exam is particularly good for that, being fresh in the lecturer's mind) and clustering students into categories (e.g., if you see someone doing really good work, you put that student into the A-cluster, so the cutoff for A will be no higher than their score). Some lecturers also curve based on pre-determined ratios (something I avoid, but I've heard of lecturers forced to do this by the admininstration), but again it is impossible to predict the final relative position of a student just based on their current status, as some students improve heavily during the semester.



        So computing a "current grade" is a nontrivial exercise in forecasting -- and a thankless one, as the reward curve is biased to the negative (getting students' grades right will net you some thanks; getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action). Teaching is hard enough without it.






        share|improve this answer
























        • getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

          – Elizabeth Henning
          1 hour ago








        • 3





          @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

          – darij grinberg
          1 hour ago
















        4












        4








        4







        I've been that professor several times. Much to my own chagrin, there often is no such thing as "the current grade". On a typical day during a typical semester, there are scores for homeworks, quizzes, midterms and whatever other assessments have been completed so far, and there is a formula in the syllabus that computes a "final score" from all the assessment scores, but:




        1. the formula assumes all scores to be known, not just the first few. Extrapolating is not trivial, particularly if the rules include things like "the lowest homework score will be dropped" or "later midterms will be weighted more" or "the first homework will be dropped if the next ones show improvement".


        2. the cutoffs for the grades are rarely decided upon in advance; they often are determined by looking through students's work (the final midterm or exam is particularly good for that, being fresh in the lecturer's mind) and clustering students into categories (e.g., if you see someone doing really good work, you put that student into the A-cluster, so the cutoff for A will be no higher than their score). Some lecturers also curve based on pre-determined ratios (something I avoid, but I've heard of lecturers forced to do this by the admininstration), but again it is impossible to predict the final relative position of a student just based on their current status, as some students improve heavily during the semester.



        So computing a "current grade" is a nontrivial exercise in forecasting -- and a thankless one, as the reward curve is biased to the negative (getting students' grades right will net you some thanks; getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action). Teaching is hard enough without it.






        share|improve this answer













        I've been that professor several times. Much to my own chagrin, there often is no such thing as "the current grade". On a typical day during a typical semester, there are scores for homeworks, quizzes, midterms and whatever other assessments have been completed so far, and there is a formula in the syllabus that computes a "final score" from all the assessment scores, but:




        1. the formula assumes all scores to be known, not just the first few. Extrapolating is not trivial, particularly if the rules include things like "the lowest homework score will be dropped" or "later midterms will be weighted more" or "the first homework will be dropped if the next ones show improvement".


        2. the cutoffs for the grades are rarely decided upon in advance; they often are determined by looking through students's work (the final midterm or exam is particularly good for that, being fresh in the lecturer's mind) and clustering students into categories (e.g., if you see someone doing really good work, you put that student into the A-cluster, so the cutoff for A will be no higher than their score). Some lecturers also curve based on pre-determined ratios (something I avoid, but I've heard of lecturers forced to do this by the admininstration), but again it is impossible to predict the final relative position of a student just based on their current status, as some students improve heavily during the semester.



        So computing a "current grade" is a nontrivial exercise in forecasting -- and a thankless one, as the reward curve is biased to the negative (getting students' grades right will net you some thanks; getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action). Teaching is hard enough without it.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 2 hours ago









        darij grinbergdarij grinberg

        2,40611220




        2,40611220













        • getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

          – Elizabeth Henning
          1 hour ago








        • 3





          @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

          – darij grinberg
          1 hour ago





















        • getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

          – Elizabeth Henning
          1 hour ago








        • 3





          @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

          – darij grinberg
          1 hour ago



















        getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

        – Elizabeth Henning
        1 hour ago







        getting them wrong will cause trouble all the way up to disciplinary action Come on, really? You don't think both the students and the administration understand that having an A average with 50% of the work completed doesn't necessarily mean that the student will pass the course? And you really can't place even a reasonable upper bound on where the A cutoff will fall?

        – Elizabeth Henning
        1 hour ago






        3




        3





        @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

        – darij grinberg
        1 hour ago







        @ElizabethHenning: Understand perhaps, but that doesn't mean they would react well, particularly if they can blame me for basing my estimate on guesswork (and guesswork will be part of the estimation process, due to the cutoffs being undecided). As for upper bounds on A cutoffs, I usually can tell that some students will have As -- but these are normally not the ones who would ask me where they stand. The much more common question is C cutoffs, and these depend upon lots of things.

        – darij grinberg
        1 hour ago













        3














        There may be an actual reason for the policy. In particular your professor may take more into consideration than can be captured in any intermediate "average". For an example of what can happen, I once took a physics course that had five exams, the last being the final. My grades for the exams were, in order: F, D, C, B, and A. My "average" all along the way was pretty dismal. The final grade I was assigned (I won't say earned, I guess) was A. I was a happy camper. The prof actually had a reputation as being very strict.



        Without knowing more it is impossible to judge whether the professor is being rational or not.



        For what it's worth, the reason for the first F was that I "crammed" and stayed up all night before the exam. Well, one reason, anyway. It was open-book, also.






        share|improve this answer






























          3














          There may be an actual reason for the policy. In particular your professor may take more into consideration than can be captured in any intermediate "average". For an example of what can happen, I once took a physics course that had five exams, the last being the final. My grades for the exams were, in order: F, D, C, B, and A. My "average" all along the way was pretty dismal. The final grade I was assigned (I won't say earned, I guess) was A. I was a happy camper. The prof actually had a reputation as being very strict.



          Without knowing more it is impossible to judge whether the professor is being rational or not.



          For what it's worth, the reason for the first F was that I "crammed" and stayed up all night before the exam. Well, one reason, anyway. It was open-book, also.






          share|improve this answer




























            3












            3








            3







            There may be an actual reason for the policy. In particular your professor may take more into consideration than can be captured in any intermediate "average". For an example of what can happen, I once took a physics course that had five exams, the last being the final. My grades for the exams were, in order: F, D, C, B, and A. My "average" all along the way was pretty dismal. The final grade I was assigned (I won't say earned, I guess) was A. I was a happy camper. The prof actually had a reputation as being very strict.



            Without knowing more it is impossible to judge whether the professor is being rational or not.



            For what it's worth, the reason for the first F was that I "crammed" and stayed up all night before the exam. Well, one reason, anyway. It was open-book, also.






            share|improve this answer















            There may be an actual reason for the policy. In particular your professor may take more into consideration than can be captured in any intermediate "average". For an example of what can happen, I once took a physics course that had five exams, the last being the final. My grades for the exams were, in order: F, D, C, B, and A. My "average" all along the way was pretty dismal. The final grade I was assigned (I won't say earned, I guess) was A. I was a happy camper. The prof actually had a reputation as being very strict.



            Without knowing more it is impossible to judge whether the professor is being rational or not.



            For what it's worth, the reason for the first F was that I "crammed" and stayed up all night before the exam. Well, one reason, anyway. It was open-book, also.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 7 hours ago

























            answered 8 hours ago









            BuffyBuffy

            45.7k12147233




            45.7k12147233























                1














                You sound like you are very concerned about your past grades. Students who pay a lot of attention to their past grades tend to believe they cannot control what they learn, because it is a fixed number. Psychologists call this an "external locus of control." External locus of control can reduce the amount of effort students put into learning.



                Students who pay a lot of attention to what they need to do in the future in order to learn have an "internal locus of control." They believe their decisions determine what they will learn. These students tend to put in more effort and study more efficiently.



                It is a legitimate pedagogical approach for professors to refuse to discuss grades with students. When doing so, it is important to guide students to thinking about things they can choose to do which will help them learn. This can help students view their futures as being something they believe they can control by making good choices. Such beliefs lead to good choices.



                Of course, it's possible your professor does not want to discuss your grades because they do not know what they are.



                Regardless of the reasons, it is unlikely your professor is required to provide grades before the end of the course.






                share|improve this answer
























                • Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                  – Solar Mike
                  6 hours ago











                • How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                  – Captain Emacs
                  6 hours ago






                • 1





                  the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                  – Dan Romik
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                  – Anonymous Physicist
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                  – Dan Romik
                  57 mins ago
















                1














                You sound like you are very concerned about your past grades. Students who pay a lot of attention to their past grades tend to believe they cannot control what they learn, because it is a fixed number. Psychologists call this an "external locus of control." External locus of control can reduce the amount of effort students put into learning.



                Students who pay a lot of attention to what they need to do in the future in order to learn have an "internal locus of control." They believe their decisions determine what they will learn. These students tend to put in more effort and study more efficiently.



                It is a legitimate pedagogical approach for professors to refuse to discuss grades with students. When doing so, it is important to guide students to thinking about things they can choose to do which will help them learn. This can help students view their futures as being something they believe they can control by making good choices. Such beliefs lead to good choices.



                Of course, it's possible your professor does not want to discuss your grades because they do not know what they are.



                Regardless of the reasons, it is unlikely your professor is required to provide grades before the end of the course.






                share|improve this answer
























                • Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                  – Solar Mike
                  6 hours ago











                • How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                  – Captain Emacs
                  6 hours ago






                • 1





                  the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                  – Dan Romik
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                  – Anonymous Physicist
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                  – Dan Romik
                  57 mins ago














                1












                1








                1







                You sound like you are very concerned about your past grades. Students who pay a lot of attention to their past grades tend to believe they cannot control what they learn, because it is a fixed number. Psychologists call this an "external locus of control." External locus of control can reduce the amount of effort students put into learning.



                Students who pay a lot of attention to what they need to do in the future in order to learn have an "internal locus of control." They believe their decisions determine what they will learn. These students tend to put in more effort and study more efficiently.



                It is a legitimate pedagogical approach for professors to refuse to discuss grades with students. When doing so, it is important to guide students to thinking about things they can choose to do which will help them learn. This can help students view their futures as being something they believe they can control by making good choices. Such beliefs lead to good choices.



                Of course, it's possible your professor does not want to discuss your grades because they do not know what they are.



                Regardless of the reasons, it is unlikely your professor is required to provide grades before the end of the course.






                share|improve this answer













                You sound like you are very concerned about your past grades. Students who pay a lot of attention to their past grades tend to believe they cannot control what they learn, because it is a fixed number. Psychologists call this an "external locus of control." External locus of control can reduce the amount of effort students put into learning.



                Students who pay a lot of attention to what they need to do in the future in order to learn have an "internal locus of control." They believe their decisions determine what they will learn. These students tend to put in more effort and study more efficiently.



                It is a legitimate pedagogical approach for professors to refuse to discuss grades with students. When doing so, it is important to guide students to thinking about things they can choose to do which will help them learn. This can help students view their futures as being something they believe they can control by making good choices. Such beliefs lead to good choices.



                Of course, it's possible your professor does not want to discuss your grades because they do not know what they are.



                Regardless of the reasons, it is unlikely your professor is required to provide grades before the end of the course.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 7 hours ago









                Anonymous PhysicistAnonymous Physicist

                19.8k83979




                19.8k83979













                • Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                  – Solar Mike
                  6 hours ago











                • How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                  – Captain Emacs
                  6 hours ago






                • 1





                  the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                  – Dan Romik
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                  – Anonymous Physicist
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                  – Dan Romik
                  57 mins ago



















                • Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                  – Solar Mike
                  6 hours ago











                • How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                  – Captain Emacs
                  6 hours ago






                • 1





                  the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                  – Dan Romik
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                  – Anonymous Physicist
                  1 hour ago






                • 1





                  In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                  – Dan Romik
                  57 mins ago

















                Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                – Solar Mike
                6 hours ago





                Some institutions require assessments are graded and returned (with grades and relevant comments) within a certain time frame such as 2 weeks....

                – Solar Mike
                6 hours ago













                How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                – Captain Emacs
                6 hours ago





                How should a student know how well they do if they do not get an idea what their grade is? Students are notorious for being totally off in estimating their own performance (either over- or underestimating it drastically), so having an idea how they fare would be really the minimal requirement once you give grades at all. Of course, revising to the grade should be discouraged, but still, if you are not prepared to give feedback, you shouldn't be giving grades in the first place.

                – Captain Emacs
                6 hours ago




                1




                1





                the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                – Dan Romik
                1 hour ago





                the locus of control theory implies that students should not know how well they are doing. I never heard of this theory before but I strongly suspect it implies no such thing. Students need to know how well they‘re doing for entirely practical reasons having to do with prioritizing competing tasks. If a student is taking several classes and has limited time to study, it‘s rational, desirable and healthy for them to make decisions about how to allocate their study time between the different classes to optimize the overall grade distribution. To do that, they need to know their grades. Simple.

                – Dan Romik
                1 hour ago




                1




                1





                @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                – Anonymous Physicist
                1 hour ago





                @DanRomik I don't believe that optimizing grades is a good goal. That goal leads to selecting courses that require the least learning. Students would be wiser to optimise their actual learning directly, rather than using grades as a low quality proxy.

                – Anonymous Physicist
                1 hour ago




                1




                1





                In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                – Dan Romik
                57 mins ago





                In an ideal world, I suppose you’re right. In the actual world where failing a class can result in losing a fellowship, getting kicked out of school, even losing your visa and having to leave the country and other bad consequences, and where the difference between an A and an A- can mean not getting into your grad school of choice, the system essentially forces students to solve such optimization problems all the time as a survival strategy. You may not like that the system works that way, but it does, so I don’t think withholding grade information from students is a viable approach.

                – Dan Romik
                57 mins ago











                0














                Personally I think an instructor ought to maintain a running grade count, but it is conceivable that one might not. Might only do the data entry and calculation at the end. Or maybe wants to retain ability to finesse the grades a bit (will only be done in your favor unless a snake, though).



                I doubt there is a policy requiring the prof to give interim grading instruction, but of course you could check. There is a big difference between "required" and optimal.



                For what it is worth, I went to a school that had formal, published interim grades every 4 weeks, during 16 week semesters. Most people hated this more than like it since it could create academic sanctions...






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                  0














                  Personally I think an instructor ought to maintain a running grade count, but it is conceivable that one might not. Might only do the data entry and calculation at the end. Or maybe wants to retain ability to finesse the grades a bit (will only be done in your favor unless a snake, though).



                  I doubt there is a policy requiring the prof to give interim grading instruction, but of course you could check. There is a big difference between "required" and optimal.



                  For what it is worth, I went to a school that had formal, published interim grades every 4 weeks, during 16 week semesters. Most people hated this more than like it since it could create academic sanctions...






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.























                    0












                    0








                    0







                    Personally I think an instructor ought to maintain a running grade count, but it is conceivable that one might not. Might only do the data entry and calculation at the end. Or maybe wants to retain ability to finesse the grades a bit (will only be done in your favor unless a snake, though).



                    I doubt there is a policy requiring the prof to give interim grading instruction, but of course you could check. There is a big difference between "required" and optimal.



                    For what it is worth, I went to a school that had formal, published interim grades every 4 weeks, during 16 week semesters. Most people hated this more than like it since it could create academic sanctions...






                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.










                    Personally I think an instructor ought to maintain a running grade count, but it is conceivable that one might not. Might only do the data entry and calculation at the end. Or maybe wants to retain ability to finesse the grades a bit (will only be done in your favor unless a snake, though).



                    I doubt there is a policy requiring the prof to give interim grading instruction, but of course you could check. There is a big difference between "required" and optimal.



                    For what it is worth, I went to a school that had formal, published interim grades every 4 weeks, during 16 week semesters. Most people hated this more than like it since it could create academic sanctions...







                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer






                    New contributor




                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    answered 7 hours ago









                    guestguest

                    412




                    412




                    New contributor




                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





                    New contributor





                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.























                        0














                        I've actually seen this a lot, and I think it's completely reprehensible. The reasoning is ostensibly that the only "grade" is the final grade, which cannot be accurately determined until after the final exam.



                        Unfortunately, you're not going to get anywhere with this instructor trying to get her to budge on this. You might have more luck with asking her a more noncommittal question, such as "How am I doing in the course?" or by asking her for advice about how you can do better (even if you're already doing well).



                        As someone who's TA'd for professors with this ridiculous policy, I can tell you that badgering the TA won't help. The TA doesn't know either. Really.






                        share|improve this answer




























                          0














                          I've actually seen this a lot, and I think it's completely reprehensible. The reasoning is ostensibly that the only "grade" is the final grade, which cannot be accurately determined until after the final exam.



                          Unfortunately, you're not going to get anywhere with this instructor trying to get her to budge on this. You might have more luck with asking her a more noncommittal question, such as "How am I doing in the course?" or by asking her for advice about how you can do better (even if you're already doing well).



                          As someone who's TA'd for professors with this ridiculous policy, I can tell you that badgering the TA won't help. The TA doesn't know either. Really.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            I've actually seen this a lot, and I think it's completely reprehensible. The reasoning is ostensibly that the only "grade" is the final grade, which cannot be accurately determined until after the final exam.



                            Unfortunately, you're not going to get anywhere with this instructor trying to get her to budge on this. You might have more luck with asking her a more noncommittal question, such as "How am I doing in the course?" or by asking her for advice about how you can do better (even if you're already doing well).



                            As someone who's TA'd for professors with this ridiculous policy, I can tell you that badgering the TA won't help. The TA doesn't know either. Really.






                            share|improve this answer













                            I've actually seen this a lot, and I think it's completely reprehensible. The reasoning is ostensibly that the only "grade" is the final grade, which cannot be accurately determined until after the final exam.



                            Unfortunately, you're not going to get anywhere with this instructor trying to get her to budge on this. You might have more luck with asking her a more noncommittal question, such as "How am I doing in the course?" or by asking her for advice about how you can do better (even if you're already doing well).



                            As someone who's TA'd for professors with this ridiculous policy, I can tell you that badgering the TA won't help. The TA doesn't know either. Really.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 2 hours ago









                            Elizabeth HenningElizabeth Henning

                            5,51411032




                            5,51411032






















                                J.J.Jameson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










                                draft saved

                                draft discarded


















                                J.J.Jameson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                                J.J.Jameson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                J.J.Jameson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Academia Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2facademia.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f124722%2fis-it-normal-for-an-instructor-to-refuse-to-tell-students-their-current-grade%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                الفوسفات في المغرب

                                Four equal circles intersect: What is the area of the small shaded portion and its height

                                جامعة ليفربول