Why grip with only three fingers?
I have heard a number of judoka promote gripping with only the lower three fingers (pinky, ring, middle) as opposed to all five. I've sometimes heard this referred to as the 'Japanese grip'.
Is there any evidence to support this grip being more effective in judo than grips where all fingers are engaged? Or is this just a stylistic choice?
When I first heard this recommended it reminded me of a passage in Musashi Miyamoto's Book of Five Rings:
Holding the Long Sword
Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in your thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in your hands.
When you take up a sword, you must feel intent on cutting the enemy. As you cut an enemy you must not change your grip, and your hands must not "cower". When you dash the enemy's sword aside, or ward it off, or force it down, you must slightly change the feeling in your thumb and forefinger. Above all, you must be intent on cutting the enemy in the way you grip the sword.
The grip for combat and for sword-testing is the same. There is no such thing as a "man-cutting grip".
Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand. You must bear this in mind.
And while in principle it seems sound - reducing fixedness and use of strength in your hand seems to imply having greater [wrist] flexibility and less fatigue - I'd like to see some evidence that it is more effective and is as applicable in gripping a gi as it is believed to be in holding a sword.
judo grappling stance
add a comment |
I have heard a number of judoka promote gripping with only the lower three fingers (pinky, ring, middle) as opposed to all five. I've sometimes heard this referred to as the 'Japanese grip'.
Is there any evidence to support this grip being more effective in judo than grips where all fingers are engaged? Or is this just a stylistic choice?
When I first heard this recommended it reminded me of a passage in Musashi Miyamoto's Book of Five Rings:
Holding the Long Sword
Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in your thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in your hands.
When you take up a sword, you must feel intent on cutting the enemy. As you cut an enemy you must not change your grip, and your hands must not "cower". When you dash the enemy's sword aside, or ward it off, or force it down, you must slightly change the feeling in your thumb and forefinger. Above all, you must be intent on cutting the enemy in the way you grip the sword.
The grip for combat and for sword-testing is the same. There is no such thing as a "man-cutting grip".
Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand. You must bear this in mind.
And while in principle it seems sound - reducing fixedness and use of strength in your hand seems to imply having greater [wrist] flexibility and less fatigue - I'd like to see some evidence that it is more effective and is as applicable in gripping a gi as it is believed to be in holding a sword.
judo grappling stance
1
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
1
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I have heard a number of judoka promote gripping with only the lower three fingers (pinky, ring, middle) as opposed to all five. I've sometimes heard this referred to as the 'Japanese grip'.
Is there any evidence to support this grip being more effective in judo than grips where all fingers are engaged? Or is this just a stylistic choice?
When I first heard this recommended it reminded me of a passage in Musashi Miyamoto's Book of Five Rings:
Holding the Long Sword
Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in your thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in your hands.
When you take up a sword, you must feel intent on cutting the enemy. As you cut an enemy you must not change your grip, and your hands must not "cower". When you dash the enemy's sword aside, or ward it off, or force it down, you must slightly change the feeling in your thumb and forefinger. Above all, you must be intent on cutting the enemy in the way you grip the sword.
The grip for combat and for sword-testing is the same. There is no such thing as a "man-cutting grip".
Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand. You must bear this in mind.
And while in principle it seems sound - reducing fixedness and use of strength in your hand seems to imply having greater [wrist] flexibility and less fatigue - I'd like to see some evidence that it is more effective and is as applicable in gripping a gi as it is believed to be in holding a sword.
judo grappling stance
I have heard a number of judoka promote gripping with only the lower three fingers (pinky, ring, middle) as opposed to all five. I've sometimes heard this referred to as the 'Japanese grip'.
Is there any evidence to support this grip being more effective in judo than grips where all fingers are engaged? Or is this just a stylistic choice?
When I first heard this recommended it reminded me of a passage in Musashi Miyamoto's Book of Five Rings:
Holding the Long Sword
Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in your thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in your hands.
When you take up a sword, you must feel intent on cutting the enemy. As you cut an enemy you must not change your grip, and your hands must not "cower". When you dash the enemy's sword aside, or ward it off, or force it down, you must slightly change the feeling in your thumb and forefinger. Above all, you must be intent on cutting the enemy in the way you grip the sword.
The grip for combat and for sword-testing is the same. There is no such thing as a "man-cutting grip".
Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand. You must bear this in mind.
And while in principle it seems sound - reducing fixedness and use of strength in your hand seems to imply having greater [wrist] flexibility and less fatigue - I'd like to see some evidence that it is more effective and is as applicable in gripping a gi as it is believed to be in holding a sword.
judo grappling stance
judo grappling stance
edited 5 hours ago
ukemi
asked 6 hours ago
ukemiukemi
34829
34829
1
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
1
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
1
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago
1
1
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
1
1
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
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The consensus of opinion on this, based on a brief survey of forums discussing it, is that the 3 finger grip is done for 2 reasons primarily:
It reduces fatigue in the forearm muscles. If you're gripping using the middle, ring, and pinky fingers only, then you're not engaging your forearm muscles as much. Instead, you'll be using your wrist muscles primarily. That should reduce muscular fatigue.
Reducing forearm muscle involvement increases range of motion in the wrist, making it easier and quicker to adapt to changes in grip. By not engaging your forearm muscles as much, you'll find that you can flick your wrist upwards more quickly. Otherwise you'll be struggling against your own forearm muscles to release your grip, what's known as "antagonistic muscle reflex".
Many grapplers (BJJ, Judo, etc.) readily switch between 3 and 4 finger grips. They might use a 3 finger grip on the lower sleeve, but switch to a 4 finger grip when they move to the lapel. Using a 4 finger grip on the sleeve makes it harder for them to adapt and change to a more secure grip.
While the 3 finger grip is more flexible, the 4 finger grip is more solid. The 4 finger grip can provide a connection with the rest of your body that the 3 finger grip can not. That's useful for getting the weight of your whole body behind your throw or take-down. It can also keep your opponent more immobilized, and therefore keeps you more stable.
Some think that the 3 finger grip makes you less susceptible to finger sprains and breaks. This sort of makes sense, because you can't sprain a finger that isn't involved in the grip. But it may have more to do with the fact that a 3 finger grip simply makes your grip more flexible, so you don't channel all of the torque in the finger tips.
One caveat to the 3 finger grip is that leaving the index finger out and loose is inviting someone to grab it and twist, at least in a real life street fighting situation. And unlike pressure point strikes, this is actually very easy to pull off against even experienced grapplers. Most mainstream BJJ and MMA competitions forbid small joint manipulation for that reason, which means that it doesn't get sufficient attention in training and can leave a hole in your defense. It's debatable how frequent this would happen in MMA / no-holds-barred competition if it was allowed, but there are examples of this in venues where the rules were less restrictive.
Hope that helps.
add a comment |
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The consensus of opinion on this, based on a brief survey of forums discussing it, is that the 3 finger grip is done for 2 reasons primarily:
It reduces fatigue in the forearm muscles. If you're gripping using the middle, ring, and pinky fingers only, then you're not engaging your forearm muscles as much. Instead, you'll be using your wrist muscles primarily. That should reduce muscular fatigue.
Reducing forearm muscle involvement increases range of motion in the wrist, making it easier and quicker to adapt to changes in grip. By not engaging your forearm muscles as much, you'll find that you can flick your wrist upwards more quickly. Otherwise you'll be struggling against your own forearm muscles to release your grip, what's known as "antagonistic muscle reflex".
Many grapplers (BJJ, Judo, etc.) readily switch between 3 and 4 finger grips. They might use a 3 finger grip on the lower sleeve, but switch to a 4 finger grip when they move to the lapel. Using a 4 finger grip on the sleeve makes it harder for them to adapt and change to a more secure grip.
While the 3 finger grip is more flexible, the 4 finger grip is more solid. The 4 finger grip can provide a connection with the rest of your body that the 3 finger grip can not. That's useful for getting the weight of your whole body behind your throw or take-down. It can also keep your opponent more immobilized, and therefore keeps you more stable.
Some think that the 3 finger grip makes you less susceptible to finger sprains and breaks. This sort of makes sense, because you can't sprain a finger that isn't involved in the grip. But it may have more to do with the fact that a 3 finger grip simply makes your grip more flexible, so you don't channel all of the torque in the finger tips.
One caveat to the 3 finger grip is that leaving the index finger out and loose is inviting someone to grab it and twist, at least in a real life street fighting situation. And unlike pressure point strikes, this is actually very easy to pull off against even experienced grapplers. Most mainstream BJJ and MMA competitions forbid small joint manipulation for that reason, which means that it doesn't get sufficient attention in training and can leave a hole in your defense. It's debatable how frequent this would happen in MMA / no-holds-barred competition if it was allowed, but there are examples of this in venues where the rules were less restrictive.
Hope that helps.
add a comment |
The consensus of opinion on this, based on a brief survey of forums discussing it, is that the 3 finger grip is done for 2 reasons primarily:
It reduces fatigue in the forearm muscles. If you're gripping using the middle, ring, and pinky fingers only, then you're not engaging your forearm muscles as much. Instead, you'll be using your wrist muscles primarily. That should reduce muscular fatigue.
Reducing forearm muscle involvement increases range of motion in the wrist, making it easier and quicker to adapt to changes in grip. By not engaging your forearm muscles as much, you'll find that you can flick your wrist upwards more quickly. Otherwise you'll be struggling against your own forearm muscles to release your grip, what's known as "antagonistic muscle reflex".
Many grapplers (BJJ, Judo, etc.) readily switch between 3 and 4 finger grips. They might use a 3 finger grip on the lower sleeve, but switch to a 4 finger grip when they move to the lapel. Using a 4 finger grip on the sleeve makes it harder for them to adapt and change to a more secure grip.
While the 3 finger grip is more flexible, the 4 finger grip is more solid. The 4 finger grip can provide a connection with the rest of your body that the 3 finger grip can not. That's useful for getting the weight of your whole body behind your throw or take-down. It can also keep your opponent more immobilized, and therefore keeps you more stable.
Some think that the 3 finger grip makes you less susceptible to finger sprains and breaks. This sort of makes sense, because you can't sprain a finger that isn't involved in the grip. But it may have more to do with the fact that a 3 finger grip simply makes your grip more flexible, so you don't channel all of the torque in the finger tips.
One caveat to the 3 finger grip is that leaving the index finger out and loose is inviting someone to grab it and twist, at least in a real life street fighting situation. And unlike pressure point strikes, this is actually very easy to pull off against even experienced grapplers. Most mainstream BJJ and MMA competitions forbid small joint manipulation for that reason, which means that it doesn't get sufficient attention in training and can leave a hole in your defense. It's debatable how frequent this would happen in MMA / no-holds-barred competition if it was allowed, but there are examples of this in venues where the rules were less restrictive.
Hope that helps.
add a comment |
The consensus of opinion on this, based on a brief survey of forums discussing it, is that the 3 finger grip is done for 2 reasons primarily:
It reduces fatigue in the forearm muscles. If you're gripping using the middle, ring, and pinky fingers only, then you're not engaging your forearm muscles as much. Instead, you'll be using your wrist muscles primarily. That should reduce muscular fatigue.
Reducing forearm muscle involvement increases range of motion in the wrist, making it easier and quicker to adapt to changes in grip. By not engaging your forearm muscles as much, you'll find that you can flick your wrist upwards more quickly. Otherwise you'll be struggling against your own forearm muscles to release your grip, what's known as "antagonistic muscle reflex".
Many grapplers (BJJ, Judo, etc.) readily switch between 3 and 4 finger grips. They might use a 3 finger grip on the lower sleeve, but switch to a 4 finger grip when they move to the lapel. Using a 4 finger grip on the sleeve makes it harder for them to adapt and change to a more secure grip.
While the 3 finger grip is more flexible, the 4 finger grip is more solid. The 4 finger grip can provide a connection with the rest of your body that the 3 finger grip can not. That's useful for getting the weight of your whole body behind your throw or take-down. It can also keep your opponent more immobilized, and therefore keeps you more stable.
Some think that the 3 finger grip makes you less susceptible to finger sprains and breaks. This sort of makes sense, because you can't sprain a finger that isn't involved in the grip. But it may have more to do with the fact that a 3 finger grip simply makes your grip more flexible, so you don't channel all of the torque in the finger tips.
One caveat to the 3 finger grip is that leaving the index finger out and loose is inviting someone to grab it and twist, at least in a real life street fighting situation. And unlike pressure point strikes, this is actually very easy to pull off against even experienced grapplers. Most mainstream BJJ and MMA competitions forbid small joint manipulation for that reason, which means that it doesn't get sufficient attention in training and can leave a hole in your defense. It's debatable how frequent this would happen in MMA / no-holds-barred competition if it was allowed, but there are examples of this in venues where the rules were less restrictive.
Hope that helps.
The consensus of opinion on this, based on a brief survey of forums discussing it, is that the 3 finger grip is done for 2 reasons primarily:
It reduces fatigue in the forearm muscles. If you're gripping using the middle, ring, and pinky fingers only, then you're not engaging your forearm muscles as much. Instead, you'll be using your wrist muscles primarily. That should reduce muscular fatigue.
Reducing forearm muscle involvement increases range of motion in the wrist, making it easier and quicker to adapt to changes in grip. By not engaging your forearm muscles as much, you'll find that you can flick your wrist upwards more quickly. Otherwise you'll be struggling against your own forearm muscles to release your grip, what's known as "antagonistic muscle reflex".
Many grapplers (BJJ, Judo, etc.) readily switch between 3 and 4 finger grips. They might use a 3 finger grip on the lower sleeve, but switch to a 4 finger grip when they move to the lapel. Using a 4 finger grip on the sleeve makes it harder for them to adapt and change to a more secure grip.
While the 3 finger grip is more flexible, the 4 finger grip is more solid. The 4 finger grip can provide a connection with the rest of your body that the 3 finger grip can not. That's useful for getting the weight of your whole body behind your throw or take-down. It can also keep your opponent more immobilized, and therefore keeps you more stable.
Some think that the 3 finger grip makes you less susceptible to finger sprains and breaks. This sort of makes sense, because you can't sprain a finger that isn't involved in the grip. But it may have more to do with the fact that a 3 finger grip simply makes your grip more flexible, so you don't channel all of the torque in the finger tips.
One caveat to the 3 finger grip is that leaving the index finger out and loose is inviting someone to grab it and twist, at least in a real life street fighting situation. And unlike pressure point strikes, this is actually very easy to pull off against even experienced grapplers. Most mainstream BJJ and MMA competitions forbid small joint manipulation for that reason, which means that it doesn't get sufficient attention in training and can leave a hole in your defense. It's debatable how frequent this would happen in MMA / no-holds-barred competition if it was allowed, but there are examples of this in venues where the rules were less restrictive.
Hope that helps.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
Steve WeigandSteve Weigand
11k2040
11k2040
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1
Just a note - Physiologically speaking, the majority of the strength in your grip comes from the last two fingers of the hand (pinky/ring). 50% + of grip strength is lost if you exclude the ulnar digits, with a greater effect on the dominant hand.
– JohnP♦
5 hours ago
1
I haven't found anything scientific, and it seems to largely be a Japanese martial arts thing outside of one mention I've seen in Glima (Viking) wrestling, which also does a passive index finger for the same stated reason of providing more wrist flexibility.
– Sean Duggan
5 hours ago
@SeanDuggan - Golf grips are taught the same way, with the grip progressively tighter as you get towards the pinky.
– JohnP♦
2 hours ago