How can an object with zero potential and kinetic energy ever move?












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I am not sure how to ask this question but I am learning about potential energy (high school physics) and from the deffinition of a potential energy (energy stored in an object with the potential to convert into other type of energy) i don't understand how for eg. when we have an object (let's say a ball) on the ground, it has zero kinetic energy and also zero potential energy and now let's say the ball starts falling of a cliff so it will be gaining kinetic energy but when it had no potential energy, how can it be now gaining energy? Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?



Thanks.










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  • 4




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    the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Wolphram jonny
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    1 hour ago








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    The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    23 mins ago
















1












$begingroup$


I am not sure how to ask this question but I am learning about potential energy (high school physics) and from the deffinition of a potential energy (energy stored in an object with the potential to convert into other type of energy) i don't understand how for eg. when we have an object (let's say a ball) on the ground, it has zero kinetic energy and also zero potential energy and now let's say the ball starts falling of a cliff so it will be gaining kinetic energy but when it had no potential energy, how can it be now gaining energy? Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?



Thanks.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Wolphram jonny
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    23 mins ago














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$begingroup$


I am not sure how to ask this question but I am learning about potential energy (high school physics) and from the deffinition of a potential energy (energy stored in an object with the potential to convert into other type of energy) i don't understand how for eg. when we have an object (let's say a ball) on the ground, it has zero kinetic energy and also zero potential energy and now let's say the ball starts falling of a cliff so it will be gaining kinetic energy but when it had no potential energy, how can it be now gaining energy? Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?



Thanks.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I am not sure how to ask this question but I am learning about potential energy (high school physics) and from the deffinition of a potential energy (energy stored in an object with the potential to convert into other type of energy) i don't understand how for eg. when we have an object (let's say a ball) on the ground, it has zero kinetic energy and also zero potential energy and now let's say the ball starts falling of a cliff so it will be gaining kinetic energy but when it had no potential energy, how can it be now gaining energy? Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?



Thanks.







newtonian-mechanics energy potential-energy






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asked 1 hour ago









Lauren SinLauren Sin

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    the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Wolphram jonny
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    23 mins ago














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
    $endgroup$
    – Wolphram jonny
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    23 mins ago








4




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$begingroup$
the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
$endgroup$
– Wolphram jonny
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
the potential energy becomes negative, that is how it can gain positive kinetic energy and the total energy remain zero.
$endgroup$
– Wolphram jonny
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
1 hour ago






$begingroup$
Related: How does anything move? and links therein.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
1 hour ago






2




2




$begingroup$
The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
$endgroup$
– David White
23 mins ago




$begingroup$
The explanation is complicated by two ideas that are quite subtle: 1) the "zero" point for potential energy is arbitrary; 2) the reference frame that you are in is arbitrary and so is the reference frame of the ball. Carefully read your physics book, study and rework example problems from that book, and ask your teacher for a detailed explanation in front of a marker board. Also realize that common misconceptions and common sense often don't work well to solve physics problems ... you necessarily have to learn the key concepts to do that.
$endgroup$
– David White
23 mins ago










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Where we define the potential energy to be $0$ in classical mechanics is arbitrary. All that matters is the change in potential energy. Since you are just learning this stuff I will assume you are in an algebra based physics class, so I will avoid using calculus here.



Potential energies are nice because they tell us how much work is done by a conservative force. More specifically, the work done by a conservative force is given by
$$W_{cons}=-Delta U$$
where $U$ is the potential energy associated with that conservative force. This is useful because we also know that the net work done on an object determines its change in kinetic energy
$$W_{net}=Delta K$$



So, if we consider your case where we just have one conservative force acting on the object, we can conclude that
$$Delta K=-Delta U$$



And so we see here that the only thing that determines how the motion of our object changes is just the change in potential energy. If we define the zero-point to be at the top of the cliff, then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease and be negative when it hits the bottom of the cliff. If we define the zero-point to be at the bottom of the cliff then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease to $0$ when it hits the bottom of the cliff. In either case the same thing happens because we have the same change in potential energy.




Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?




Typically in introductory physics classes we just consider the ball being in a uniform gravitational field and we don't even consider the Earth. However if you want to include the Earth in your system then when the ball falls the Earth will actually move slightly upwards to meet the ball. It will still be the case though that the work done by gravity on each object is related to the change in the potential energy of each object, which results in a change of kinetic energy.






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    The energy of an object consists of its internal energy (kinetic and potential energy possessed internally to an object at the atomic or molecular level) and external kinetic and potential energy. Its external kinetic and potential energy is always with respect to some external frame of reference.



    The ball on the surface of the earth may have zero potential energy with respect to the surface of the earth, but has gravitational potential energy with respect to the center of the earth. It doesn’t move because the force of gravity downward on the ball is equal and opposite to the force exerted upward on it by the ground. But imagine if there was a trench that went from one side of the earth to the other. If the ball were positioned over the hole and allowed to fall, it would accelerate toward the center of the earth losing potential energy and gaining kinetic energy, the latter being a maximum at the center where its potential energy is zero. Then it would decelerate as it goes past the center as it gains potential energy and loses kinetic energy, ultimately stopping at the other side (ignoring air resistance).



    Even the kinetic energy of the object is relative to the frame of reference where the velocity is measured. If you are in a car moving at velocity $v$ with respect to the road, it has zero kinetic energy in your frame of reference. It is not “moving” in your frame of reference, but is moving in the frame of reference of a person standing on the road. To that person the car has kinetic energy. The person standing on the road is “moving” with respect to your frame of reference in the car, so that person has kinetic energy with respect to you in the car. The person standing on the road has kinetic energy with respect to a frame of reference other than the earth (since the earth is rotating). And so on…



    Bottom line, everything can be considered to have kinetic energy (be moving) with respect to some frame of reference and have potential energy (due to its position) with respect to some frame of reference.



    Hope this help.






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    • $begingroup$
      I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      14 mins ago










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      Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
      $endgroup$
      – Bob D
      8 mins ago










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      Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      7 mins ago



















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    A moving object, due to its inertia, has an energy (that could do damage in case it impacts something :) We call that energy "Kinetic"

    A system (like the earth and ball) can potentially (if allowed) cause one or both objects to move because of the gravity (in this case).



    If the force of gravity is perpendicular to the surface where the ball meets the earth, that hard surface prevents the ball from going anywhere so we are saying that the ball can potentially gain no speed thus it has "no potential energy".



    This is where the confusion starts, because in fact that ball had potential energy (if only allowed to move). The only place where the ball could really have zero potential energy would be at the lowest point on the surface of the earh (or that of the surface of the ocean floor depending on the density of the ball)
    If we move the ball to the side making available a cliff where the ball could potentially roll down on, we realise that the ball (or the system) did have potential energy, we just said it didn't, for practical reasons.






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    • 1




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      Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      42 mins ago










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      But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
      $endgroup$
      – Lauren Sin
      38 mins ago






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      @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      34 mins ago





















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    When An object is on a cliff at rest then relative to ground ,it will have 0 kinetic energy.we can take the surface of the cliff at 0 potential. When it is on surface of cliff,Two forces are working on it, The gravitational force of earth and the normal force of surface.Net force is zero, So it is in equilibrium.As net force is zero,so change in it's kinetic energy or its potential energy is also zero ($F=-dU/dx$).



    When it is falling from the cliff ,we removed the normal force ,so net force is acting that is gravitational force. This will change its potential (kinetic)energy. We assumed the cliff at 0 potential energy ,so the force will decrease the potential energy in negative as wolframe johny said.



    The “energy” is just an abstract accounting tool that we use to describe the results of those interactions in terms of the work being done.



    We talk about the potential energy of system ,because we need force that will cause change in potential energy,but kinetic energy is just because of the relative motion of the object






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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
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      $begingroup$

      Where we define the potential energy to be $0$ in classical mechanics is arbitrary. All that matters is the change in potential energy. Since you are just learning this stuff I will assume you are in an algebra based physics class, so I will avoid using calculus here.



      Potential energies are nice because they tell us how much work is done by a conservative force. More specifically, the work done by a conservative force is given by
      $$W_{cons}=-Delta U$$
      where $U$ is the potential energy associated with that conservative force. This is useful because we also know that the net work done on an object determines its change in kinetic energy
      $$W_{net}=Delta K$$



      So, if we consider your case where we just have one conservative force acting on the object, we can conclude that
      $$Delta K=-Delta U$$



      And so we see here that the only thing that determines how the motion of our object changes is just the change in potential energy. If we define the zero-point to be at the top of the cliff, then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease and be negative when it hits the bottom of the cliff. If we define the zero-point to be at the bottom of the cliff then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease to $0$ when it hits the bottom of the cliff. In either case the same thing happens because we have the same change in potential energy.




      Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?




      Typically in introductory physics classes we just consider the ball being in a uniform gravitational field and we don't even consider the Earth. However if you want to include the Earth in your system then when the ball falls the Earth will actually move slightly upwards to meet the ball. It will still be the case though that the work done by gravity on each object is related to the change in the potential energy of each object, which results in a change of kinetic energy.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        Where we define the potential energy to be $0$ in classical mechanics is arbitrary. All that matters is the change in potential energy. Since you are just learning this stuff I will assume you are in an algebra based physics class, so I will avoid using calculus here.



        Potential energies are nice because they tell us how much work is done by a conservative force. More specifically, the work done by a conservative force is given by
        $$W_{cons}=-Delta U$$
        where $U$ is the potential energy associated with that conservative force. This is useful because we also know that the net work done on an object determines its change in kinetic energy
        $$W_{net}=Delta K$$



        So, if we consider your case where we just have one conservative force acting on the object, we can conclude that
        $$Delta K=-Delta U$$



        And so we see here that the only thing that determines how the motion of our object changes is just the change in potential energy. If we define the zero-point to be at the top of the cliff, then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease and be negative when it hits the bottom of the cliff. If we define the zero-point to be at the bottom of the cliff then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease to $0$ when it hits the bottom of the cliff. In either case the same thing happens because we have the same change in potential energy.




        Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?




        Typically in introductory physics classes we just consider the ball being in a uniform gravitational field and we don't even consider the Earth. However if you want to include the Earth in your system then when the ball falls the Earth will actually move slightly upwards to meet the ball. It will still be the case though that the work done by gravity on each object is related to the change in the potential energy of each object, which results in a change of kinetic energy.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















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          1





          $begingroup$

          Where we define the potential energy to be $0$ in classical mechanics is arbitrary. All that matters is the change in potential energy. Since you are just learning this stuff I will assume you are in an algebra based physics class, so I will avoid using calculus here.



          Potential energies are nice because they tell us how much work is done by a conservative force. More specifically, the work done by a conservative force is given by
          $$W_{cons}=-Delta U$$
          where $U$ is the potential energy associated with that conservative force. This is useful because we also know that the net work done on an object determines its change in kinetic energy
          $$W_{net}=Delta K$$



          So, if we consider your case where we just have one conservative force acting on the object, we can conclude that
          $$Delta K=-Delta U$$



          And so we see here that the only thing that determines how the motion of our object changes is just the change in potential energy. If we define the zero-point to be at the top of the cliff, then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease and be negative when it hits the bottom of the cliff. If we define the zero-point to be at the bottom of the cliff then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease to $0$ when it hits the bottom of the cliff. In either case the same thing happens because we have the same change in potential energy.




          Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?




          Typically in introductory physics classes we just consider the ball being in a uniform gravitational field and we don't even consider the Earth. However if you want to include the Earth in your system then when the ball falls the Earth will actually move slightly upwards to meet the ball. It will still be the case though that the work done by gravity on each object is related to the change in the potential energy of each object, which results in a change of kinetic energy.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Where we define the potential energy to be $0$ in classical mechanics is arbitrary. All that matters is the change in potential energy. Since you are just learning this stuff I will assume you are in an algebra based physics class, so I will avoid using calculus here.



          Potential energies are nice because they tell us how much work is done by a conservative force. More specifically, the work done by a conservative force is given by
          $$W_{cons}=-Delta U$$
          where $U$ is the potential energy associated with that conservative force. This is useful because we also know that the net work done on an object determines its change in kinetic energy
          $$W_{net}=Delta K$$



          So, if we consider your case where we just have one conservative force acting on the object, we can conclude that
          $$Delta K=-Delta U$$



          And so we see here that the only thing that determines how the motion of our object changes is just the change in potential energy. If we define the zero-point to be at the top of the cliff, then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease and be negative when it hits the bottom of the cliff. If we define the zero-point to be at the bottom of the cliff then as the object falls its kinetic energy will grow and its potential energy will decrease to $0$ when it hits the bottom of the cliff. In either case the same thing happens because we have the same change in potential energy.




          Also another question that was already discussed in SE (but i didn't find my answer there) is why do we talk about the potential energy of a system (ball+Earth) but kinetic energy of an object (ball)?




          Typically in introductory physics classes we just consider the ball being in a uniform gravitational field and we don't even consider the Earth. However if you want to include the Earth in your system then when the ball falls the Earth will actually move slightly upwards to meet the ball. It will still be the case though that the work done by gravity on each object is related to the change in the potential energy of each object, which results in a change of kinetic energy.







          share|cite|improve this answer












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          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 25 mins ago









          Aaron StevensAaron Stevens

          9,82231741




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              $begingroup$

              The energy of an object consists of its internal energy (kinetic and potential energy possessed internally to an object at the atomic or molecular level) and external kinetic and potential energy. Its external kinetic and potential energy is always with respect to some external frame of reference.



              The ball on the surface of the earth may have zero potential energy with respect to the surface of the earth, but has gravitational potential energy with respect to the center of the earth. It doesn’t move because the force of gravity downward on the ball is equal and opposite to the force exerted upward on it by the ground. But imagine if there was a trench that went from one side of the earth to the other. If the ball were positioned over the hole and allowed to fall, it would accelerate toward the center of the earth losing potential energy and gaining kinetic energy, the latter being a maximum at the center where its potential energy is zero. Then it would decelerate as it goes past the center as it gains potential energy and loses kinetic energy, ultimately stopping at the other side (ignoring air resistance).



              Even the kinetic energy of the object is relative to the frame of reference where the velocity is measured. If you are in a car moving at velocity $v$ with respect to the road, it has zero kinetic energy in your frame of reference. It is not “moving” in your frame of reference, but is moving in the frame of reference of a person standing on the road. To that person the car has kinetic energy. The person standing on the road is “moving” with respect to your frame of reference in the car, so that person has kinetic energy with respect to you in the car. The person standing on the road has kinetic energy with respect to a frame of reference other than the earth (since the earth is rotating). And so on…



              Bottom line, everything can be considered to have kinetic energy (be moving) with respect to some frame of reference and have potential energy (due to its position) with respect to some frame of reference.



              Hope this help.






              share|cite|improve this answer









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              • $begingroup$
                I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                14 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Bob D
                8 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                7 mins ago
















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              $begingroup$

              The energy of an object consists of its internal energy (kinetic and potential energy possessed internally to an object at the atomic or molecular level) and external kinetic and potential energy. Its external kinetic and potential energy is always with respect to some external frame of reference.



              The ball on the surface of the earth may have zero potential energy with respect to the surface of the earth, but has gravitational potential energy with respect to the center of the earth. It doesn’t move because the force of gravity downward on the ball is equal and opposite to the force exerted upward on it by the ground. But imagine if there was a trench that went from one side of the earth to the other. If the ball were positioned over the hole and allowed to fall, it would accelerate toward the center of the earth losing potential energy and gaining kinetic energy, the latter being a maximum at the center where its potential energy is zero. Then it would decelerate as it goes past the center as it gains potential energy and loses kinetic energy, ultimately stopping at the other side (ignoring air resistance).



              Even the kinetic energy of the object is relative to the frame of reference where the velocity is measured. If you are in a car moving at velocity $v$ with respect to the road, it has zero kinetic energy in your frame of reference. It is not “moving” in your frame of reference, but is moving in the frame of reference of a person standing on the road. To that person the car has kinetic energy. The person standing on the road is “moving” with respect to your frame of reference in the car, so that person has kinetic energy with respect to you in the car. The person standing on the road has kinetic energy with respect to a frame of reference other than the earth (since the earth is rotating). And so on…



              Bottom line, everything can be considered to have kinetic energy (be moving) with respect to some frame of reference and have potential energy (due to its position) with respect to some frame of reference.



              Hope this help.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                14 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Bob D
                8 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                7 mins ago














              2












              2








              2





              $begingroup$

              The energy of an object consists of its internal energy (kinetic and potential energy possessed internally to an object at the atomic or molecular level) and external kinetic and potential energy. Its external kinetic and potential energy is always with respect to some external frame of reference.



              The ball on the surface of the earth may have zero potential energy with respect to the surface of the earth, but has gravitational potential energy with respect to the center of the earth. It doesn’t move because the force of gravity downward on the ball is equal and opposite to the force exerted upward on it by the ground. But imagine if there was a trench that went from one side of the earth to the other. If the ball were positioned over the hole and allowed to fall, it would accelerate toward the center of the earth losing potential energy and gaining kinetic energy, the latter being a maximum at the center where its potential energy is zero. Then it would decelerate as it goes past the center as it gains potential energy and loses kinetic energy, ultimately stopping at the other side (ignoring air resistance).



              Even the kinetic energy of the object is relative to the frame of reference where the velocity is measured. If you are in a car moving at velocity $v$ with respect to the road, it has zero kinetic energy in your frame of reference. It is not “moving” in your frame of reference, but is moving in the frame of reference of a person standing on the road. To that person the car has kinetic energy. The person standing on the road is “moving” with respect to your frame of reference in the car, so that person has kinetic energy with respect to you in the car. The person standing on the road has kinetic energy with respect to a frame of reference other than the earth (since the earth is rotating). And so on…



              Bottom line, everything can be considered to have kinetic energy (be moving) with respect to some frame of reference and have potential energy (due to its position) with respect to some frame of reference.



              Hope this help.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              The energy of an object consists of its internal energy (kinetic and potential energy possessed internally to an object at the atomic or molecular level) and external kinetic and potential energy. Its external kinetic and potential energy is always with respect to some external frame of reference.



              The ball on the surface of the earth may have zero potential energy with respect to the surface of the earth, but has gravitational potential energy with respect to the center of the earth. It doesn’t move because the force of gravity downward on the ball is equal and opposite to the force exerted upward on it by the ground. But imagine if there was a trench that went from one side of the earth to the other. If the ball were positioned over the hole and allowed to fall, it would accelerate toward the center of the earth losing potential energy and gaining kinetic energy, the latter being a maximum at the center where its potential energy is zero. Then it would decelerate as it goes past the center as it gains potential energy and loses kinetic energy, ultimately stopping at the other side (ignoring air resistance).



              Even the kinetic energy of the object is relative to the frame of reference where the velocity is measured. If you are in a car moving at velocity $v$ with respect to the road, it has zero kinetic energy in your frame of reference. It is not “moving” in your frame of reference, but is moving in the frame of reference of a person standing on the road. To that person the car has kinetic energy. The person standing on the road is “moving” with respect to your frame of reference in the car, so that person has kinetic energy with respect to you in the car. The person standing on the road has kinetic energy with respect to a frame of reference other than the earth (since the earth is rotating). And so on…



              Bottom line, everything can be considered to have kinetic energy (be moving) with respect to some frame of reference and have potential energy (due to its position) with respect to some frame of reference.



              Hope this help.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered 22 mins ago









              Bob DBob D

              2,469212




              2,469212












              • $begingroup$
                I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                14 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Bob D
                8 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                7 mins ago


















              • $begingroup$
                I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                14 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
                $endgroup$
                – Bob D
                8 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                7 mins ago
















              $begingroup$
              I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              14 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              I like how you mention the arbitrariness of the "zero-point" of kinetic energy. I knew this was the case, but never realized how they are kind of the same idea. In a sense, just like how we define where $h=0$ for the zero-point of potential energy, we can also define what constitutes as $v=0$ for a sort of "zero-point" of kinetic energy.
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              14 mins ago












              $begingroup$
              Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
              $endgroup$
              – Bob D
              8 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              Thanks. I like the way you call it "zero point" kinetic and potential energy.
              $endgroup$
              – Bob D
              8 mins ago












              $begingroup$
              Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              7 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              Yeah it is probably not the most accurate terminology considering the use of "zero-point energy" in QM, but since we are in the classical realm for this question I think I will keep it haha
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              7 mins ago











              1












              $begingroup$

              A moving object, due to its inertia, has an energy (that could do damage in case it impacts something :) We call that energy "Kinetic"

              A system (like the earth and ball) can potentially (if allowed) cause one or both objects to move because of the gravity (in this case).



              If the force of gravity is perpendicular to the surface where the ball meets the earth, that hard surface prevents the ball from going anywhere so we are saying that the ball can potentially gain no speed thus it has "no potential energy".



              This is where the confusion starts, because in fact that ball had potential energy (if only allowed to move). The only place where the ball could really have zero potential energy would be at the lowest point on the surface of the earh (or that of the surface of the ocean floor depending on the density of the ball)
              If we move the ball to the side making available a cliff where the ball could potentially roll down on, we realise that the ball (or the system) did have potential energy, we just said it didn't, for practical reasons.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                42 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
                $endgroup$
                – Lauren Sin
                38 mins ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                34 mins ago


















              1












              $begingroup$

              A moving object, due to its inertia, has an energy (that could do damage in case it impacts something :) We call that energy "Kinetic"

              A system (like the earth and ball) can potentially (if allowed) cause one or both objects to move because of the gravity (in this case).



              If the force of gravity is perpendicular to the surface where the ball meets the earth, that hard surface prevents the ball from going anywhere so we are saying that the ball can potentially gain no speed thus it has "no potential energy".



              This is where the confusion starts, because in fact that ball had potential energy (if only allowed to move). The only place where the ball could really have zero potential energy would be at the lowest point on the surface of the earh (or that of the surface of the ocean floor depending on the density of the ball)
              If we move the ball to the side making available a cliff where the ball could potentially roll down on, we realise that the ball (or the system) did have potential energy, we just said it didn't, for practical reasons.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                42 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
                $endgroup$
                – Lauren Sin
                38 mins ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                34 mins ago
















              1












              1








              1





              $begingroup$

              A moving object, due to its inertia, has an energy (that could do damage in case it impacts something :) We call that energy "Kinetic"

              A system (like the earth and ball) can potentially (if allowed) cause one or both objects to move because of the gravity (in this case).



              If the force of gravity is perpendicular to the surface where the ball meets the earth, that hard surface prevents the ball from going anywhere so we are saying that the ball can potentially gain no speed thus it has "no potential energy".



              This is where the confusion starts, because in fact that ball had potential energy (if only allowed to move). The only place where the ball could really have zero potential energy would be at the lowest point on the surface of the earh (or that of the surface of the ocean floor depending on the density of the ball)
              If we move the ball to the side making available a cliff where the ball could potentially roll down on, we realise that the ball (or the system) did have potential energy, we just said it didn't, for practical reasons.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              A moving object, due to its inertia, has an energy (that could do damage in case it impacts something :) We call that energy "Kinetic"

              A system (like the earth and ball) can potentially (if allowed) cause one or both objects to move because of the gravity (in this case).



              If the force of gravity is perpendicular to the surface where the ball meets the earth, that hard surface prevents the ball from going anywhere so we are saying that the ball can potentially gain no speed thus it has "no potential energy".



              This is where the confusion starts, because in fact that ball had potential energy (if only allowed to move). The only place where the ball could really have zero potential energy would be at the lowest point on the surface of the earh (or that of the surface of the ocean floor depending on the density of the ball)
              If we move the ball to the side making available a cliff where the ball could potentially roll down on, we realise that the ball (or the system) did have potential energy, we just said it didn't, for practical reasons.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited 53 mins ago

























              answered 1 hour ago









              Alex DoeAlex Doe

              823312




              823312








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                42 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
                $endgroup$
                – Lauren Sin
                38 mins ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                34 mins ago
















              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                42 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
                $endgroup$
                – Lauren Sin
                38 mins ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
                $endgroup$
                – Aaron Stevens
                34 mins ago










              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              42 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              Your answer seems to put a lot of importance on where we actually define potential energy to be $0$, when in fact the $0$ point is arbitrary.
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              42 mins ago












              $begingroup$
              But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
              $endgroup$
              – Lauren Sin
              38 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              But then I don't get what the potential energy represents or why do we even need it when we can choose the point where potential energy is 0, then the value of potential energy will be different for the same object (position) everytime we choose a different 0 point. Like for eg if you compared two velocities one with the magnitude 0m/s and one 10m/s you know the other object is faster, but with PE the same object in one position can have different magnitude/value depending on the zero point. So the value doen't represent anything in my opinion, or what does it represent?
              $endgroup$
              – Lauren Sin
              38 mins ago




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              34 mins ago






              $begingroup$
              @LaurenSin What really matters is changes in potential energy. The absolute value of it does not matter. Also when comparing two objects you still use the same zero-point for each object, so it is still relevant to say which object has more potential energy that could be converted to kinetic energy should both objects end up with the same potential energy while they move. But the same thing will happen to an object going from potential energies of $5 rm J$ to $3 rm J$ as one going from $2 rm J$ to $0 rm J$
              $endgroup$
              – Aaron Stevens
              34 mins ago













              0












              $begingroup$

              When An object is on a cliff at rest then relative to ground ,it will have 0 kinetic energy.we can take the surface of the cliff at 0 potential. When it is on surface of cliff,Two forces are working on it, The gravitational force of earth and the normal force of surface.Net force is zero, So it is in equilibrium.As net force is zero,so change in it's kinetic energy or its potential energy is also zero ($F=-dU/dx$).



              When it is falling from the cliff ,we removed the normal force ,so net force is acting that is gravitational force. This will change its potential (kinetic)energy. We assumed the cliff at 0 potential energy ,so the force will decrease the potential energy in negative as wolframe johny said.



              The “energy” is just an abstract accounting tool that we use to describe the results of those interactions in terms of the work being done.



              We talk about the potential energy of system ,because we need force that will cause change in potential energy,but kinetic energy is just because of the relative motion of the object






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                When An object is on a cliff at rest then relative to ground ,it will have 0 kinetic energy.we can take the surface of the cliff at 0 potential. When it is on surface of cliff,Two forces are working on it, The gravitational force of earth and the normal force of surface.Net force is zero, So it is in equilibrium.As net force is zero,so change in it's kinetic energy or its potential energy is also zero ($F=-dU/dx$).



                When it is falling from the cliff ,we removed the normal force ,so net force is acting that is gravitational force. This will change its potential (kinetic)energy. We assumed the cliff at 0 potential energy ,so the force will decrease the potential energy in negative as wolframe johny said.



                The “energy” is just an abstract accounting tool that we use to describe the results of those interactions in terms of the work being done.



                We talk about the potential energy of system ,because we need force that will cause change in potential energy,but kinetic energy is just because of the relative motion of the object






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  When An object is on a cliff at rest then relative to ground ,it will have 0 kinetic energy.we can take the surface of the cliff at 0 potential. When it is on surface of cliff,Two forces are working on it, The gravitational force of earth and the normal force of surface.Net force is zero, So it is in equilibrium.As net force is zero,so change in it's kinetic energy or its potential energy is also zero ($F=-dU/dx$).



                  When it is falling from the cliff ,we removed the normal force ,so net force is acting that is gravitational force. This will change its potential (kinetic)energy. We assumed the cliff at 0 potential energy ,so the force will decrease the potential energy in negative as wolframe johny said.



                  The “energy” is just an abstract accounting tool that we use to describe the results of those interactions in terms of the work being done.



                  We talk about the potential energy of system ,because we need force that will cause change in potential energy,but kinetic energy is just because of the relative motion of the object






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  When An object is on a cliff at rest then relative to ground ,it will have 0 kinetic energy.we can take the surface of the cliff at 0 potential. When it is on surface of cliff,Two forces are working on it, The gravitational force of earth and the normal force of surface.Net force is zero, So it is in equilibrium.As net force is zero,so change in it's kinetic energy or its potential energy is also zero ($F=-dU/dx$).



                  When it is falling from the cliff ,we removed the normal force ,so net force is acting that is gravitational force. This will change its potential (kinetic)energy. We assumed the cliff at 0 potential energy ,so the force will decrease the potential energy in negative as wolframe johny said.



                  The “energy” is just an abstract accounting tool that we use to describe the results of those interactions in terms of the work being done.



                  We talk about the potential energy of system ,because we need force that will cause change in potential energy,but kinetic energy is just because of the relative motion of the object







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 32 mins ago









                  TheBrolyTheBroly

                  828




                  828






























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