compactness of a set where am I going wrong












6












$begingroup$


I have a proof of the following false fact :




Let $E$ be normed vector space. Let $K subset E$ be a compact set. Then the set $B = {lambda x mid lambda in mathbb{R}^+, x in K }$ is closed (where $mathbb{R}^+$ are the positive real numbers including $0$).




This fact is true when $0 not in K$ yet it can be false when $0 in K$. For example by taking the semi-circle in the plane centered at $(1,0)$ of radius $1$.



So I made a proof a of this fact. My proof is thus obviously false yet I don't see where the mistake is :



Let $(lambda_n k_n)$ be a sequence in $B$ which converges to a vector $x in E$. We want to prove that $x in B$.



Since $K$ is compact there is $phi : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ strictly increasing such that $(k_{phi(n)})$ converges to a vector $k in K$. If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done. So we can suppose $k ne 0$.



Since the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $x$ we must have $k in span { x }$. So there is $mu in mathbb{R}^*$ such that $k = mu x$. From here we can deduce that the sequence $(lambda_n)$ necessarily converges to $frac{1}{mu}$. Yet since $mathbb{R}^+$ is closed the sequence $(lambda_n)$ converges to a positive real number, so $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$ so $mu geq 0$.
So the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to the vector $frac{1}{mu} k in B$ since $k in K$ and $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$. Hence $B$ is closed.



So where am I going wrong here ?



Thank you !










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  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey You are right thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















6












$begingroup$


I have a proof of the following false fact :




Let $E$ be normed vector space. Let $K subset E$ be a compact set. Then the set $B = {lambda x mid lambda in mathbb{R}^+, x in K }$ is closed (where $mathbb{R}^+$ are the positive real numbers including $0$).




This fact is true when $0 not in K$ yet it can be false when $0 in K$. For example by taking the semi-circle in the plane centered at $(1,0)$ of radius $1$.



So I made a proof a of this fact. My proof is thus obviously false yet I don't see where the mistake is :



Let $(lambda_n k_n)$ be a sequence in $B$ which converges to a vector $x in E$. We want to prove that $x in B$.



Since $K$ is compact there is $phi : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ strictly increasing such that $(k_{phi(n)})$ converges to a vector $k in K$. If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done. So we can suppose $k ne 0$.



Since the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $x$ we must have $k in span { x }$. So there is $mu in mathbb{R}^*$ such that $k = mu x$. From here we can deduce that the sequence $(lambda_n)$ necessarily converges to $frac{1}{mu}$. Yet since $mathbb{R}^+$ is closed the sequence $(lambda_n)$ converges to a positive real number, so $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$ so $mu geq 0$.
So the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to the vector $frac{1}{mu} k in B$ since $k in K$ and $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$. Hence $B$ is closed.



So where am I going wrong here ?



Thank you !










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




mouargmouarg is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey You are right thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago














6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


I have a proof of the following false fact :




Let $E$ be normed vector space. Let $K subset E$ be a compact set. Then the set $B = {lambda x mid lambda in mathbb{R}^+, x in K }$ is closed (where $mathbb{R}^+$ are the positive real numbers including $0$).




This fact is true when $0 not in K$ yet it can be false when $0 in K$. For example by taking the semi-circle in the plane centered at $(1,0)$ of radius $1$.



So I made a proof a of this fact. My proof is thus obviously false yet I don't see where the mistake is :



Let $(lambda_n k_n)$ be a sequence in $B$ which converges to a vector $x in E$. We want to prove that $x in B$.



Since $K$ is compact there is $phi : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ strictly increasing such that $(k_{phi(n)})$ converges to a vector $k in K$. If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done. So we can suppose $k ne 0$.



Since the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $x$ we must have $k in span { x }$. So there is $mu in mathbb{R}^*$ such that $k = mu x$. From here we can deduce that the sequence $(lambda_n)$ necessarily converges to $frac{1}{mu}$. Yet since $mathbb{R}^+$ is closed the sequence $(lambda_n)$ converges to a positive real number, so $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$ so $mu geq 0$.
So the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to the vector $frac{1}{mu} k in B$ since $k in K$ and $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$. Hence $B$ is closed.



So where am I going wrong here ?



Thank you !










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




mouargmouarg is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I have a proof of the following false fact :




Let $E$ be normed vector space. Let $K subset E$ be a compact set. Then the set $B = {lambda x mid lambda in mathbb{R}^+, x in K }$ is closed (where $mathbb{R}^+$ are the positive real numbers including $0$).




This fact is true when $0 not in K$ yet it can be false when $0 in K$. For example by taking the semi-circle in the plane centered at $(1,0)$ of radius $1$.



So I made a proof a of this fact. My proof is thus obviously false yet I don't see where the mistake is :



Let $(lambda_n k_n)$ be a sequence in $B$ which converges to a vector $x in E$. We want to prove that $x in B$.



Since $K$ is compact there is $phi : mathbb{N} to mathbb{N}$ strictly increasing such that $(k_{phi(n)})$ converges to a vector $k in K$. If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done. So we can suppose $k ne 0$.



Since the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $x$ we must have $k in span { x }$. So there is $mu in mathbb{R}^*$ such that $k = mu x$. From here we can deduce that the sequence $(lambda_n)$ necessarily converges to $frac{1}{mu}$. Yet since $mathbb{R}^+$ is closed the sequence $(lambda_n)$ converges to a positive real number, so $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$ so $mu geq 0$.
So the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to the vector $frac{1}{mu} k in B$ since $k in K$ and $frac{1}{mu} geq 0$. Hence $B$ is closed.



So where am I going wrong here ?



Thank you !







real-analysis general-topology proof-verification compactness






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edited 3 hours ago







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asked 3 hours ago









mouargmouargmouargmouarg

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  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey You are right thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey You are right thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















$begingroup$
I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
I guess you mean $B$ to be the union of the $lambda K$ rather than the set of them?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
@EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@EricWofsey By this notation I mean the set of $lambda x$ for all $x in K$ and $lambda geq 0$, so my notation is wrong ?
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Yes, your notation meant that $B$ is the set whose elements are the sets $lambda K$ (so an element of $B$ is a subset of $E$, not a point of $E$).
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
@EricWofsey You are right thank you.
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@EricWofsey You are right thank you.
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

In this situation, try to apply your argument to the counter-example you found, to see where it goes wrong.



Let us take for $K$ the circle of center $(1,0)$ and radius $1$. Then $S := bigcup_{lambda geq 0} lambda K = {(0,0)} cup (mathbb{R}_+^* times mathbb{R})$. It is not closed because one can take the family $f(t) = (t,1)$, which belongs to $S$ for $t>0$, and converges to $(0,1) notin S$ as $t$ goes to $0$.



The corresponding family of parameters $lambda (t)$ and $k(t)$ are:



$$lambda(t) = frac{1+t^2}{2t}, quad k(t) = frac{2t}{1+t^2} (t,1).$$



As $t$ goes to $0$, we have that $k(t)$ converges to $0$. But $lambda (t) k(t)$ does not converge to $0$, because $lambda(t)$ increases fast enough to compensate for the decay of $k(t)$.



hence your mistake is there: the fact that $(k_n)$ converges to $0$ does not imply that $(lambda_n k_n)$ also converges to $0$, because $lambda_n$ has no reason to be bounded.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago



















1












$begingroup$


If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done.




This is wrong. We know $k_{phi(n)}to 0$, but $lambda_n$ may be getting large so $lambda_nk_n$ can converge to a nonzero value.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

In this situation, try to apply your argument to the counter-example you found, to see where it goes wrong.



Let us take for $K$ the circle of center $(1,0)$ and radius $1$. Then $S := bigcup_{lambda geq 0} lambda K = {(0,0)} cup (mathbb{R}_+^* times mathbb{R})$. It is not closed because one can take the family $f(t) = (t,1)$, which belongs to $S$ for $t>0$, and converges to $(0,1) notin S$ as $t$ goes to $0$.



The corresponding family of parameters $lambda (t)$ and $k(t)$ are:



$$lambda(t) = frac{1+t^2}{2t}, quad k(t) = frac{2t}{1+t^2} (t,1).$$



As $t$ goes to $0$, we have that $k(t)$ converges to $0$. But $lambda (t) k(t)$ does not converge to $0$, because $lambda(t)$ increases fast enough to compensate for the decay of $k(t)$.



hence your mistake is there: the fact that $(k_n)$ converges to $0$ does not imply that $(lambda_n k_n)$ also converges to $0$, because $lambda_n$ has no reason to be bounded.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















2












$begingroup$

In this situation, try to apply your argument to the counter-example you found, to see where it goes wrong.



Let us take for $K$ the circle of center $(1,0)$ and radius $1$. Then $S := bigcup_{lambda geq 0} lambda K = {(0,0)} cup (mathbb{R}_+^* times mathbb{R})$. It is not closed because one can take the family $f(t) = (t,1)$, which belongs to $S$ for $t>0$, and converges to $(0,1) notin S$ as $t$ goes to $0$.



The corresponding family of parameters $lambda (t)$ and $k(t)$ are:



$$lambda(t) = frac{1+t^2}{2t}, quad k(t) = frac{2t}{1+t^2} (t,1).$$



As $t$ goes to $0$, we have that $k(t)$ converges to $0$. But $lambda (t) k(t)$ does not converge to $0$, because $lambda(t)$ increases fast enough to compensate for the decay of $k(t)$.



hence your mistake is there: the fact that $(k_n)$ converges to $0$ does not imply that $(lambda_n k_n)$ also converges to $0$, because $lambda_n$ has no reason to be bounded.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$

In this situation, try to apply your argument to the counter-example you found, to see where it goes wrong.



Let us take for $K$ the circle of center $(1,0)$ and radius $1$. Then $S := bigcup_{lambda geq 0} lambda K = {(0,0)} cup (mathbb{R}_+^* times mathbb{R})$. It is not closed because one can take the family $f(t) = (t,1)$, which belongs to $S$ for $t>0$, and converges to $(0,1) notin S$ as $t$ goes to $0$.



The corresponding family of parameters $lambda (t)$ and $k(t)$ are:



$$lambda(t) = frac{1+t^2}{2t}, quad k(t) = frac{2t}{1+t^2} (t,1).$$



As $t$ goes to $0$, we have that $k(t)$ converges to $0$. But $lambda (t) k(t)$ does not converge to $0$, because $lambda(t)$ increases fast enough to compensate for the decay of $k(t)$.



hence your mistake is there: the fact that $(k_n)$ converges to $0$ does not imply that $(lambda_n k_n)$ also converges to $0$, because $lambda_n$ has no reason to be bounded.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



In this situation, try to apply your argument to the counter-example you found, to see where it goes wrong.



Let us take for $K$ the circle of center $(1,0)$ and radius $1$. Then $S := bigcup_{lambda geq 0} lambda K = {(0,0)} cup (mathbb{R}_+^* times mathbb{R})$. It is not closed because one can take the family $f(t) = (t,1)$, which belongs to $S$ for $t>0$, and converges to $(0,1) notin S$ as $t$ goes to $0$.



The corresponding family of parameters $lambda (t)$ and $k(t)$ are:



$$lambda(t) = frac{1+t^2}{2t}, quad k(t) = frac{2t}{1+t^2} (t,1).$$



As $t$ goes to $0$, we have that $k(t)$ converges to $0$. But $lambda (t) k(t)$ does not converge to $0$, because $lambda(t)$ increases fast enough to compensate for the decay of $k(t)$.



hence your mistake is there: the fact that $(k_n)$ converges to $0$ does not imply that $(lambda_n k_n)$ also converges to $0$, because $lambda_n$ has no reason to be bounded.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









D. ThomineD. Thomine

7,7291538




7,7291538












  • $begingroup$
    You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















$begingroup$
You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
You are right, it's more clear to me what's happening now. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago











1












$begingroup$


If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done.




This is wrong. We know $k_{phi(n)}to 0$, but $lambda_n$ may be getting large so $lambda_nk_n$ can converge to a nonzero value.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$


If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done.




This is wrong. We know $k_{phi(n)}to 0$, but $lambda_n$ may be getting large so $lambda_nk_n$ can converge to a nonzero value.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done.




This is wrong. We know $k_{phi(n)}to 0$, but $lambda_n$ may be getting large so $lambda_nk_n$ can converge to a nonzero value.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




If $ k = 0$ then the sequence $(lambda_n k_n)$ converges to $0 in B$ and we are done.




This is wrong. We know $k_{phi(n)}to 0$, but $lambda_n$ may be getting large so $lambda_nk_n$ can converge to a nonzero value.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









Eric WofseyEric Wofsey

189k14216347




189k14216347












  • $begingroup$
    Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
    $endgroup$
    – mouargmouarg
    3 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Oh, thank you. I should have spotted that... For example by taking : $k_n = frac{1}{n}$ and $lambda_n = n$
$endgroup$
– mouargmouarg
3 hours ago










mouargmouarg is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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