What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?












2















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.










share|improve this question

























  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    16 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    14 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    11 hours ago











  • @RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago


















2















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.










share|improve this question

























  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    16 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    14 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    11 hours ago











  • @RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago
















2












2








2








What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.










share|improve this question
















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.







theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago







Randy Zeitman

















asked 16 hours ago









Randy ZeitmanRandy Zeitman

357110




357110













  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    16 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    14 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    11 hours ago











  • @RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago





















  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    16 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    14 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    11 hours ago











  • @RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

    – topo morto
    3 hours ago



















Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

– Tim
16 hours ago





Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

– Tim
16 hours ago













This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

– ggcg
14 hours ago





This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

– ggcg
14 hours ago













I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

– Randy Zeitman
11 hours ago





I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

– Randy Zeitman
11 hours ago













@RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

– topo morto
3 hours ago







@RandyZeitman "because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself" - I don't think that quite works, because the definition of the Major scale/Ionian mode as the 'daddy mode' is somewhat arbitrary. As I mention in my answer, in some ways the Mixolydian mode is more consonant than the Ionian.

– topo morto
3 hours ago












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















3














Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




  1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

  2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

  3. Aeolian has three differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

  4. Phrygian has four: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

  5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago











  • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago











  • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

    – Richard
    14 hours ago













  • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

    – Michael Curtis
    14 hours ago











  • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

    – Richard
    14 hours ago



















2














I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






share|improve this answer































    0














    To someone listening to the Ionian mode 400 years ago, it would have sounded dissonant. Even a hundred years ago, the tritone, used extensively in Blues, was considered dissonant. Dissonance requires minimum two notes played simultaneously - as does consonance. And the only real consonant interval is the octave.



    The Ionian mode contained exactly the same notes as every other mode from that parent key, so the question is on a dodgy footing. The intervals for each are exactly the same! Some cononant (sort of), some dissonant (sort of). So listing an order - all equal!






    share|improve this answer































      0















      What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?




      The modes of the diatonic scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) each contain exactly the same interval patterns - those of the diatonic scale. The only difference is the root note - so what must be meant by 'most dissonant' and 'least dissonant' here must in some way refer to the intervals that occur with respect to that root note.



      As you can see from Dissonance: why doesn't the roughness curve have a dip for complex intervals like 7/6?, it is possible to come up with a graph of how dissonant certain intervals are perceived to be:



      Plomp / Levelt curve



      Plomp & Levelt 1965



      So one way you could start to work towards some kind of dissonance ranking would be to rank how dissonant each interval created by the root and each other note in the mode is. However, you wouldn't be able to come up with an exact metric for each mode, for various reasons:




      • In real music, scales are used across more than one octave, so each degree in the scale produces a set of intervals from the root (not just one)

      • The dissonance curve is somewhat subjective, and also it depends on the timbre of the notes played (i.e. the strengths of harmonics in the sounds used, as mentioned in the linked question)

      • Perhaps most importantly, in a musical context, we don't only hear intervals between the root and every other note, but every note and every other note. So we would have to somehow consider how to 'weight' the relative dissonances of intervals produced by notes other than the root in terms of importance. (if we were to weight them all the same, then each mode would come out as sounding no more or less dissonant than the other - because, as we said at the start, all modes of the diatonic scale have the same interval pattern).


      It's this problem of 'weighting' that means that we can't come up with an exact ordering, as we can see from your example:




      The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant




      Actually, if we just consider intervals from the root, the Ionian mode wouldn't be the most consonant mode of the diatonic scale - because a major seventh is a more dissonant interval than a minor seventh, the Mixolydian mode would be measured as more consonant.



      So why might we nevertheless consider the Ionian mode more consonant than the Mixolydian? it comes back to that idea about considering the intervals from notes in the mode other than the root. If we look at the most consonant note in the Ionian mode other than the octave - i.e. the fifth - the intervals based on that are those of the mixolydian mode - i.e. very consonant! However, starting on the fifth of the Mixolydian mode generates the intervals of the Dorian mode, which would be less consonant. So the Mixolydian mode 'wins' in terms of consonance from its root, but 'loses' to the Ionian mode in terms of consonance from its fifth.



      Put another way, we can see that the Ionian mode can produce especially consonant-sounding music when using triadic harmony, for example, because you have the (consonant-sounding) intervals of a major chord available from both the (also consonant) IV and V of the mode.



      (Personally, I feel that part of the popularity of the major scale/Ionian mode is not just that it provides many opportunities for consonance, but also because the major seventh is an 'aching' dissonance that 'wants to' resolve to the root).



      So, TLDR: It's hard to come up with an overall ordering of modes by consonance / dissonance. It's probably more worthwhile to note the different opportunities for consonance and dissonance that each mode allows in a musical piece.






      share|improve this answer

























        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "240"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });














        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f78928%2fwhat-is-the-ordering-of-modes-ionian-dorian-etc-from-least-to-most-dissonan%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes








        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        3














        Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



        I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



        But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




        1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

        2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

        3. Aeolian has three differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        4. Phrygian has four: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 1





          I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

          – Richard
          14 hours ago













        • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

          – Richard
          14 hours ago
















        3














        Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



        I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



        But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




        1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

        2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

        3. Aeolian has three differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        4. Phrygian has four: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 1





          I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

          – Richard
          14 hours ago













        • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

          – Richard
          14 hours ago














        3












        3








        3







        Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



        I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



        But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




        1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

        2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

        3. Aeolian has three differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        4. Phrygian has four: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






        share|improve this answer















        Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



        I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



        But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




        1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

        2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

        3. Aeolian has three differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        4. Phrygian has four: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

        5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 9 hours ago

























        answered 14 hours ago









        RichardRichard

        39.8k689172




        39.8k689172








        • 1





          I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

          – Richard
          14 hours ago













        • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

          – Richard
          14 hours ago














        • 1





          I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

          – Richard
          14 hours ago













        • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

          – Michael Curtis
          14 hours ago











        • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

          – Richard
          14 hours ago








        1




        1





        I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago





        I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago













        I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago





        I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago













        "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

        – Richard
        14 hours ago







        "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

        – Richard
        14 hours ago















        But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago





        But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

        – Michael Curtis
        14 hours ago













        @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

        – Richard
        14 hours ago





        @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

        – Richard
        14 hours ago











        2














        I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



        You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



        I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



        I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






        share|improve this answer




























          2














          I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



          You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



          I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



          I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






          share|improve this answer


























            2












            2








            2







            I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



            You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



            I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



            I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






            share|improve this answer













            I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



            You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



            I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



            I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 15 hours ago









            Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

            6,514528




            6,514528























                0














                To someone listening to the Ionian mode 400 years ago, it would have sounded dissonant. Even a hundred years ago, the tritone, used extensively in Blues, was considered dissonant. Dissonance requires minimum two notes played simultaneously - as does consonance. And the only real consonant interval is the octave.



                The Ionian mode contained exactly the same notes as every other mode from that parent key, so the question is on a dodgy footing. The intervals for each are exactly the same! Some cononant (sort of), some dissonant (sort of). So listing an order - all equal!






                share|improve this answer




























                  0














                  To someone listening to the Ionian mode 400 years ago, it would have sounded dissonant. Even a hundred years ago, the tritone, used extensively in Blues, was considered dissonant. Dissonance requires minimum two notes played simultaneously - as does consonance. And the only real consonant interval is the octave.



                  The Ionian mode contained exactly the same notes as every other mode from that parent key, so the question is on a dodgy footing. The intervals for each are exactly the same! Some cononant (sort of), some dissonant (sort of). So listing an order - all equal!






                  share|improve this answer


























                    0












                    0








                    0







                    To someone listening to the Ionian mode 400 years ago, it would have sounded dissonant. Even a hundred years ago, the tritone, used extensively in Blues, was considered dissonant. Dissonance requires minimum two notes played simultaneously - as does consonance. And the only real consonant interval is the octave.



                    The Ionian mode contained exactly the same notes as every other mode from that parent key, so the question is on a dodgy footing. The intervals for each are exactly the same! Some cononant (sort of), some dissonant (sort of). So listing an order - all equal!






                    share|improve this answer













                    To someone listening to the Ionian mode 400 years ago, it would have sounded dissonant. Even a hundred years ago, the tritone, used extensively in Blues, was considered dissonant. Dissonance requires minimum two notes played simultaneously - as does consonance. And the only real consonant interval is the octave.



                    The Ionian mode contained exactly the same notes as every other mode from that parent key, so the question is on a dodgy footing. The intervals for each are exactly the same! Some cononant (sort of), some dissonant (sort of). So listing an order - all equal!







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 3 hours ago









                    TimTim

                    97.9k10100251




                    97.9k10100251























                        0















                        What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?




                        The modes of the diatonic scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) each contain exactly the same interval patterns - those of the diatonic scale. The only difference is the root note - so what must be meant by 'most dissonant' and 'least dissonant' here must in some way refer to the intervals that occur with respect to that root note.



                        As you can see from Dissonance: why doesn't the roughness curve have a dip for complex intervals like 7/6?, it is possible to come up with a graph of how dissonant certain intervals are perceived to be:



                        Plomp / Levelt curve



                        Plomp & Levelt 1965



                        So one way you could start to work towards some kind of dissonance ranking would be to rank how dissonant each interval created by the root and each other note in the mode is. However, you wouldn't be able to come up with an exact metric for each mode, for various reasons:




                        • In real music, scales are used across more than one octave, so each degree in the scale produces a set of intervals from the root (not just one)

                        • The dissonance curve is somewhat subjective, and also it depends on the timbre of the notes played (i.e. the strengths of harmonics in the sounds used, as mentioned in the linked question)

                        • Perhaps most importantly, in a musical context, we don't only hear intervals between the root and every other note, but every note and every other note. So we would have to somehow consider how to 'weight' the relative dissonances of intervals produced by notes other than the root in terms of importance. (if we were to weight them all the same, then each mode would come out as sounding no more or less dissonant than the other - because, as we said at the start, all modes of the diatonic scale have the same interval pattern).


                        It's this problem of 'weighting' that means that we can't come up with an exact ordering, as we can see from your example:




                        The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant




                        Actually, if we just consider intervals from the root, the Ionian mode wouldn't be the most consonant mode of the diatonic scale - because a major seventh is a more dissonant interval than a minor seventh, the Mixolydian mode would be measured as more consonant.



                        So why might we nevertheless consider the Ionian mode more consonant than the Mixolydian? it comes back to that idea about considering the intervals from notes in the mode other than the root. If we look at the most consonant note in the Ionian mode other than the octave - i.e. the fifth - the intervals based on that are those of the mixolydian mode - i.e. very consonant! However, starting on the fifth of the Mixolydian mode generates the intervals of the Dorian mode, which would be less consonant. So the Mixolydian mode 'wins' in terms of consonance from its root, but 'loses' to the Ionian mode in terms of consonance from its fifth.



                        Put another way, we can see that the Ionian mode can produce especially consonant-sounding music when using triadic harmony, for example, because you have the (consonant-sounding) intervals of a major chord available from both the (also consonant) IV and V of the mode.



                        (Personally, I feel that part of the popularity of the major scale/Ionian mode is not just that it provides many opportunities for consonance, but also because the major seventh is an 'aching' dissonance that 'wants to' resolve to the root).



                        So, TLDR: It's hard to come up with an overall ordering of modes by consonance / dissonance. It's probably more worthwhile to note the different opportunities for consonance and dissonance that each mode allows in a musical piece.






                        share|improve this answer






























                          0















                          What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?




                          The modes of the diatonic scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) each contain exactly the same interval patterns - those of the diatonic scale. The only difference is the root note - so what must be meant by 'most dissonant' and 'least dissonant' here must in some way refer to the intervals that occur with respect to that root note.



                          As you can see from Dissonance: why doesn't the roughness curve have a dip for complex intervals like 7/6?, it is possible to come up with a graph of how dissonant certain intervals are perceived to be:



                          Plomp / Levelt curve



                          Plomp & Levelt 1965



                          So one way you could start to work towards some kind of dissonance ranking would be to rank how dissonant each interval created by the root and each other note in the mode is. However, you wouldn't be able to come up with an exact metric for each mode, for various reasons:




                          • In real music, scales are used across more than one octave, so each degree in the scale produces a set of intervals from the root (not just one)

                          • The dissonance curve is somewhat subjective, and also it depends on the timbre of the notes played (i.e. the strengths of harmonics in the sounds used, as mentioned in the linked question)

                          • Perhaps most importantly, in a musical context, we don't only hear intervals between the root and every other note, but every note and every other note. So we would have to somehow consider how to 'weight' the relative dissonances of intervals produced by notes other than the root in terms of importance. (if we were to weight them all the same, then each mode would come out as sounding no more or less dissonant than the other - because, as we said at the start, all modes of the diatonic scale have the same interval pattern).


                          It's this problem of 'weighting' that means that we can't come up with an exact ordering, as we can see from your example:




                          The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant




                          Actually, if we just consider intervals from the root, the Ionian mode wouldn't be the most consonant mode of the diatonic scale - because a major seventh is a more dissonant interval than a minor seventh, the Mixolydian mode would be measured as more consonant.



                          So why might we nevertheless consider the Ionian mode more consonant than the Mixolydian? it comes back to that idea about considering the intervals from notes in the mode other than the root. If we look at the most consonant note in the Ionian mode other than the octave - i.e. the fifth - the intervals based on that are those of the mixolydian mode - i.e. very consonant! However, starting on the fifth of the Mixolydian mode generates the intervals of the Dorian mode, which would be less consonant. So the Mixolydian mode 'wins' in terms of consonance from its root, but 'loses' to the Ionian mode in terms of consonance from its fifth.



                          Put another way, we can see that the Ionian mode can produce especially consonant-sounding music when using triadic harmony, for example, because you have the (consonant-sounding) intervals of a major chord available from both the (also consonant) IV and V of the mode.



                          (Personally, I feel that part of the popularity of the major scale/Ionian mode is not just that it provides many opportunities for consonance, but also because the major seventh is an 'aching' dissonance that 'wants to' resolve to the root).



                          So, TLDR: It's hard to come up with an overall ordering of modes by consonance / dissonance. It's probably more worthwhile to note the different opportunities for consonance and dissonance that each mode allows in a musical piece.






                          share|improve this answer




























                            0












                            0








                            0








                            What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?




                            The modes of the diatonic scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) each contain exactly the same interval patterns - those of the diatonic scale. The only difference is the root note - so what must be meant by 'most dissonant' and 'least dissonant' here must in some way refer to the intervals that occur with respect to that root note.



                            As you can see from Dissonance: why doesn't the roughness curve have a dip for complex intervals like 7/6?, it is possible to come up with a graph of how dissonant certain intervals are perceived to be:



                            Plomp / Levelt curve



                            Plomp & Levelt 1965



                            So one way you could start to work towards some kind of dissonance ranking would be to rank how dissonant each interval created by the root and each other note in the mode is. However, you wouldn't be able to come up with an exact metric for each mode, for various reasons:




                            • In real music, scales are used across more than one octave, so each degree in the scale produces a set of intervals from the root (not just one)

                            • The dissonance curve is somewhat subjective, and also it depends on the timbre of the notes played (i.e. the strengths of harmonics in the sounds used, as mentioned in the linked question)

                            • Perhaps most importantly, in a musical context, we don't only hear intervals between the root and every other note, but every note and every other note. So we would have to somehow consider how to 'weight' the relative dissonances of intervals produced by notes other than the root in terms of importance. (if we were to weight them all the same, then each mode would come out as sounding no more or less dissonant than the other - because, as we said at the start, all modes of the diatonic scale have the same interval pattern).


                            It's this problem of 'weighting' that means that we can't come up with an exact ordering, as we can see from your example:




                            The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant




                            Actually, if we just consider intervals from the root, the Ionian mode wouldn't be the most consonant mode of the diatonic scale - because a major seventh is a more dissonant interval than a minor seventh, the Mixolydian mode would be measured as more consonant.



                            So why might we nevertheless consider the Ionian mode more consonant than the Mixolydian? it comes back to that idea about considering the intervals from notes in the mode other than the root. If we look at the most consonant note in the Ionian mode other than the octave - i.e. the fifth - the intervals based on that are those of the mixolydian mode - i.e. very consonant! However, starting on the fifth of the Mixolydian mode generates the intervals of the Dorian mode, which would be less consonant. So the Mixolydian mode 'wins' in terms of consonance from its root, but 'loses' to the Ionian mode in terms of consonance from its fifth.



                            Put another way, we can see that the Ionian mode can produce especially consonant-sounding music when using triadic harmony, for example, because you have the (consonant-sounding) intervals of a major chord available from both the (also consonant) IV and V of the mode.



                            (Personally, I feel that part of the popularity of the major scale/Ionian mode is not just that it provides many opportunities for consonance, but also because the major seventh is an 'aching' dissonance that 'wants to' resolve to the root).



                            So, TLDR: It's hard to come up with an overall ordering of modes by consonance / dissonance. It's probably more worthwhile to note the different opportunities for consonance and dissonance that each mode allows in a musical piece.






                            share|improve this answer
















                            What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?




                            The modes of the diatonic scale (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) each contain exactly the same interval patterns - those of the diatonic scale. The only difference is the root note - so what must be meant by 'most dissonant' and 'least dissonant' here must in some way refer to the intervals that occur with respect to that root note.



                            As you can see from Dissonance: why doesn't the roughness curve have a dip for complex intervals like 7/6?, it is possible to come up with a graph of how dissonant certain intervals are perceived to be:



                            Plomp / Levelt curve



                            Plomp & Levelt 1965



                            So one way you could start to work towards some kind of dissonance ranking would be to rank how dissonant each interval created by the root and each other note in the mode is. However, you wouldn't be able to come up with an exact metric for each mode, for various reasons:




                            • In real music, scales are used across more than one octave, so each degree in the scale produces a set of intervals from the root (not just one)

                            • The dissonance curve is somewhat subjective, and also it depends on the timbre of the notes played (i.e. the strengths of harmonics in the sounds used, as mentioned in the linked question)

                            • Perhaps most importantly, in a musical context, we don't only hear intervals between the root and every other note, but every note and every other note. So we would have to somehow consider how to 'weight' the relative dissonances of intervals produced by notes other than the root in terms of importance. (if we were to weight them all the same, then each mode would come out as sounding no more or less dissonant than the other - because, as we said at the start, all modes of the diatonic scale have the same interval pattern).


                            It's this problem of 'weighting' that means that we can't come up with an exact ordering, as we can see from your example:




                            The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant




                            Actually, if we just consider intervals from the root, the Ionian mode wouldn't be the most consonant mode of the diatonic scale - because a major seventh is a more dissonant interval than a minor seventh, the Mixolydian mode would be measured as more consonant.



                            So why might we nevertheless consider the Ionian mode more consonant than the Mixolydian? it comes back to that idea about considering the intervals from notes in the mode other than the root. If we look at the most consonant note in the Ionian mode other than the octave - i.e. the fifth - the intervals based on that are those of the mixolydian mode - i.e. very consonant! However, starting on the fifth of the Mixolydian mode generates the intervals of the Dorian mode, which would be less consonant. So the Mixolydian mode 'wins' in terms of consonance from its root, but 'loses' to the Ionian mode in terms of consonance from its fifth.



                            Put another way, we can see that the Ionian mode can produce especially consonant-sounding music when using triadic harmony, for example, because you have the (consonant-sounding) intervals of a major chord available from both the (also consonant) IV and V of the mode.



                            (Personally, I feel that part of the popularity of the major scale/Ionian mode is not just that it provides many opportunities for consonance, but also because the major seventh is an 'aching' dissonance that 'wants to' resolve to the root).



                            So, TLDR: It's hard to come up with an overall ordering of modes by consonance / dissonance. It's probably more worthwhile to note the different opportunities for consonance and dissonance that each mode allows in a musical piece.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 2 hours ago

























                            answered 3 hours ago









                            topo mortotopo morto

                            23.9k24099




                            23.9k24099






























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded




















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f78928%2fwhat-is-the-ordering-of-modes-ionian-dorian-etc-from-least-to-most-dissonan%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                الفوسفات في المغرب

                                Four equal circles intersect: What is the area of the small shaded portion and its height

                                جامعة ليفربول